Preamble

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Oral Answers to Questions — COAL TRADE DISPUTE.

POOR LAW RELIEF.

Mr. ARTHUR GREENWOOD: (by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Health whether he will state what boards of guardians have reduced their scales of out-relief since 1st May, and what boards of guardians are discriminating in their scales of relief between miners' families and others in receipt of relief whether any boards of guardians have ceased to grant either any relief or out-relief to the dependants of those involved in the present coal stoppage; whether he is aware that there is serious distress in many mining areas and what steps he proposes to ensure that Poor Law authorities take adequate steps to deal with this urgent problem?

The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Neville Chamberlain): It is not the duty or the practice of boards of guardians to report changes in their administration or any scale of relief which they may use for their guidance, but I have been informed of reductions in scales made since the 1st May in 42 instances. Having regard to the effect of the Merthyr Tydvil Judgment, which excludes relief for the miner himself while on strike, there must be a difference between the relief of miners' families and others to whom relief has been granted, and it is usual, as far as scales of relief are applied, that the scale for a miner's dependants should be higher than that for the dependants of a man who is himself receiving relief as the head of the family. There is no case within my knowledge in which boards of guardians have ceased to grant any relief to the
dependants of those involved in the present coal stoppage, but six boards of guardians are reported to have decided that only indoor relief shall be given in these cases. Such a decision is within the discretion of the guardians as far as regards applications considered by them, but nothing can interfere with the duty of a relieving officer to deal as may be required with any case of sudden or urgent necessity. As regards the third part of the question, it is obvious that a dispute of this magnitude and duration must involve hardship and even distress. The hon. Member is aware of the terms of the circular letter which I issued at the commencement of the dispute, and I have no reason to suppose that boards of guardians are not fully discharging their duties in the matter. I am sending the hon. Member lists of the unions referred to in the earlier parts of this reply.

Mr. GREENWOOD: Is it not the case that the rates of relief now being granted to miners' wives and families are in many cases below those normally given and not higher; and in how many cases, where boards of guardians have reduced the rate, has that reduction been compelled by the right hon. Gentleman making it a condition of the granting of loans?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I should expect notice of the last part of the question. I could not answer it straight off. I think in some cases there have been reductions which have reduced the amount of relief given to miners' dependants below what the hon. Member calls the normal scale, that is the scale in operation before the dispute. Whether that is lower than is given in the case of other families I am not in a position to say.

Mr. GREENWOOD: Have any of these 42 boards of guardians reduced their scales voluntarily; and what proportion of them have reduced their scales under pressure from the right hon. Gentleman?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: If I had notice of that question I might give the hon. Member the exact figures. I am afraid I cannot give them without notice.

Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Where boards of guardians have refused to give relief except inside the institutions, have the
right hon. Gentleman's inspectors been sent to ascertain why that decision was reached, in view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman sends his inspectors to boards of guardians who exceed the amount referred to in Circular 1703?

Mr. RHYS DAVIES: If a board of guardians has decided to give indoor relief only to miners' wives and dependants, is it competent for the relieving officer to give out-door relief against the decision of the board?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Nothing in the instructions of the board can take away from the relieving officer his statutory duty. He is bound to relieve cases of urgent necessity whatever the instructions given him by the board. With regard to the other question, there is certainly one case where I have instructed my inspector to inquire whether the indoor arrangements in the institution are adequate for the purpose.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: (by Private Notice) asked the Minister for Health whether he is aware that the Newcastle-under-Lyme Board of Guardians has decided to stop all out relief in their union, which includes a large number of colliery villages where poverty is extreme; whether he has made any representations to the board on this matter since it was first brought to his notice; whether he is aware that the local workhouse is quite unfitted to cope with the large influx which will ensue; and will he inquire what arrangements arc being made to house satisfactorily the new inmates?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have not yet received a report of the decision taken at yesterday's meeting of the Board of Guardians, when I understand this subject was again under consideration. The form in which relief should be given is a matter within the discretion of the board, and accordingly I have not made any representations to them about it. I am not as yet aware what arrangements may have been made by the Board to provide such institutional relief as may be required, but the general inspector of the district, will be instructed to keep in touch with the board, and to inform Me. of their adequacy.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: Can we be assured that when these people go to the workhouse to get relief, they will not be housed under sheets of corrugated iron and on damp straw, as was the case in another union in South Staffordshire; and can we be assured that this inspector will report publicly on the adequacy of the workhouse, before the right hon. Gentleman finally sanctions this step which is being taken by the board of guardians?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I have said I am instructing the general inspector to, visit the institution and satisfy me as to the adequacy of the arrangements which are proposed by the Board. I cannot do more than that at the present time.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: If these conditions are not satisfactory, can we be assured that the right hon. Gentleman will force the board of guardians to make them satisfactory?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I think the right hon. and gallant Gentleman may be sure that I will endeavour to do my duty.

Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSON: (by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Health whether he has received resolutions from boards of guardians in favour of emergency relief being made a national instead of a local charge and whether the Government are prepared to take the necessary steps to make such an alteration.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Fifty-seven resolutions to the effect indicated have been received in the Ministry. For reasons sufficiently indicated on other occasions I do not propose to recommend any alteration in the present arrangements.

Mr. THOMSON: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that in certain districts, the cost of emergency relief is putting an appalling burden on the local rates and are not the Government prepared to do anything to help these necessitous areas?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, Sir. I am aware that a, considerable burden is being placed upon the rates in consequence of the industrial stoppage. I have no doubt boards of guardians are keeping that fact in mind.

COAL PRICES.

Miss WILKINSON: (by Private Notice) asked the Secretary for Mines whether, in view of the suddenly increased demand for coal for domestic consumption consequent on the cold weather, he will take steps to control prices and prevent undue increases to the consumer?

The SECRETARY for MINES (Colonel Lane Fox): The increase of demand for coal, resulting from the colder weather, will undoubtedly add to the difficulties of the situation and may result in an increase of price, but I am not satisfied that the benefits to be secured by controlling prices would be sufficient to warrant my taking such a step which would undoubtedly tend to limit the available supply.

Miss WILKINSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the poorer districts of London and in the north very high prices are already being asked for coal; is it right that such a large profit should go to the middlemen as a result of the present national emergency; and should not the emergency powers of the Government be used to prevent this exploiting of poor, helpless people, who have nothing whatever to do with the dispute either way?

Colonel LANE FOX: I am quite aware that f he price of coal has risen very considerably, and that is inevitable in the present circumstances. I cannot assume that this is due in any large degree to profiteering by middlemen. If the hon. Lady can give me any instance of that, I will inquire into it, but at present I am not satisfied that that is the case. I should like to say that if she wishes to improve the situation, the best thing she can do is to use her undoubted influence with the miners to get them to go back.

Mr. PALING: Is it not a fact that instance after instance of profiteering has been given in this House to the right hon. Gentleman; will he state whether any of these cases have been followed up, and, if profiteering has been proved, has any action been taken?

Colonel LANE FOX: Yes. Every case which has been brought to my notice has been followed up, but in no case up to now have I been able to discover any actual profiteering.

Mr. R. MORRISON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that coal is being retailed in some of the poorer districts of London this morning at 4s. 2d. per cwt.—[HON. MEMBERS: "4s. 6d.!"]—and does he think that there is not some profiteering going on at that price?

Colonel LANE FOX: No, unless the hon. Member can tell me what that coal cost to the gentleman who sold it.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in many cases at the present time outcrop owners are charging 5s., 6s. and 7s. 6d. a ton royalty, and will he consider whether that is not profiteering?

Captain WATERHOUSE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many miners working at the outcrop are earning as much as £2 a day, and that the cost of coal at the outcrop is 45s. or 50s. a ton?

Oral Answers to Questions — WEST HAM GUARDIANS.

Miss LAWRENCE: (by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that his predecessor, in 1897, issued a General Order on nursing in workhouses, in which Order he prescribed the minimum staff; whether he will consider the issue of a Special Order on the model of that Order, prescribing the minimum staff for the workhouses in West Ham Union?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I am sorry have not received any notice of this question. I have not heard anything of it until this moment.

Mr. W. THORNE: (by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Health if he can state what amount c4 superannuation Sir Alfred Woodgate, C.B.E., was receiving at the time he was appointed to take charge of the West Ham Poor Law Union, the amount of salary he is now receiving, and what additional allowance has been granted; if he can state the salary paid to Mr. J. J. Scott as a civil servant at the time of his appointment, the salary he is now receiving, and what additional allowance has been granted; if he can also state the salary paid to Mr. Allan Beal as a civil servant at the time of his appointment, the salary he is now receiving,
and what additional allowance has been granted; if he can state whether the whole of the salaries and allowances have been sanctioned by himself, and whether such salaries and allowances have to be paid by the ratepayers in the West Ham Poor Law area?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Sir Alfred Woodgate was in receipt of a superannuation allowance of £843 a year at the time he was appointed chairman of the West Ham Board of Guardians; he is now receiving a salary of £1,500 a year in respect of his services as chairman, inclusive of all expenses. Messrs. J. J. Scott and A. Beal were respectively in receipt of salaries of £864 and £764, inclusive of cost of living bonus as civil servants at the time of their appointment as guardians of the West Ham Union, and are now in receipt respectively of £837 and £739 (the decrease is due to a drop in the cost of living figure). These two gentlemen receive, in addition, allowances inclusive of all expenses of £300 each for acting as guardians. The answer to the last part if the question is in the affirmative.

Sir WILLIAM DAVISON: With regard to the extra charge on the rate- payers of West Ham, is it not anticipated that there will be a great diminution in the expenditure by the appointment of these gentlemen?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: I observe from a notice in the Press that Sir A. Wood-gate estimates that the expenditure during the next half-year will be over £400,000 less than in the corresponding period last year, and it is expected that the rate which will have to be levied for the purpose of the guardians will be reduced by 2d. in the pound.

Mr. THORNE: The right hon. Gentleman says that the chairman of the West Ham Guardians has saved £400,000. Is he aware that a 1d. rate realises £14,200, and can he give any reason why the rate has been reduced by only 2d.?

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir, I cannot. I am merely repeating what I have seen in the Press.

Mr. THORNE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the net burden cast on the ratepayers of the West Ham
Poor Law Union is only £30,000 less than at this time last year, or equivalent to a 2d. rate?

Miss LAWRENCE: Will the right hon. Gentleman say how much of the relief to the rates is due to the money he has advanced to the West Ham Board of Guardians; will he give us some sketch as to how the finance of West Ham is divided between himself and the ratepayers?

Mr. BECKETT: Is it in order for a Minister when asked for information concerning his Department to quote what he happens to have read in some unnamed newspaper?

Mr. SPEAKER: Obviously, the Minister of Health has given the best information he has. Miss Wilkinson. [Interruption.]

Miss WILKINSON: May I ask for your protection, Mr. Speaker? Am I to be insulted by an hon. Member sitting near on the other side of the Gangway?

Mr. SPEAKER: Certainly not. I am not aware of anything of the kind. Had I been aware, I should certainly protect the hon. Member.

Lieut.-Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALL: May I explain? The hon. Member apparently did not hear you call her, or, apparently, she does not understand the etiquette due to the Chair.

Mr. SPEAKER: In that case I think the hon. and gallant Member for Dulwich (Sir F. Hall) was attempting to perform my duties.

Mr. JOHNSTON: On a point of Order. Are you aware, Mr. Speaker, that it is within the knowledge of many Members sitting round here that the hon. and gallant Member for Dulwich (Sir F. Hall) did more than he has admitted to you, and that he addressed the hon. Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) as "Miss Perky"?

Mr. SPEAKER: I must ask the hon. and gallant Member for Dulwich to restrain his humour.

Miss LAWRENCE: Is it in order for Members to use mere vulgar street-corner insolence?

Mr. MACQUISTEN: On a point of Order. Is it not a fact that the person
who repeats is as bad as the person who originates, and that consequently the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Johnston) is as much out of order as the hon. Member for Dulwich (Sir F. Hall)?

Oral Answers to Questions — MAIL VAN ROBBERY.

Mr. THURTLE: (by Private Notice) asked the Postmaster-General whether the driver of the General Post Office mail van which was abandoned in Upper Charles Street on Saturday last, and from which mail bags were stolen, had been retained by the contractors, Messrs. Macnamaras, after temporary service during the general strike, at the request of his Department; and if, in view of the important nature of the work of driving General Post Office mail vans, he will advise these contractors that they should, for work of this character, give employment to those men of proved reliability who were not re-engaged after the general strike?

The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir William Mitchell-Thomson): After the general strike, a certain number of temporary drivers who had been employed by the Post Office during its course, were desirous of permanent employment. The names of these men, who apparently included the driver in question, were given by the Post Office to the contractors, who took them into their service. Under the terms of the contract, however, the responsibility for the engagement or dismissal of drivers rests entirely with the contractors.

Mr. THURTLE: Does the right hon. Gentleman think it worth while endangering the safety of His Majesty's mails by adopting a vindictive attitude towards men who went on strike?

Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I do not think I can let that observation pass without saying that this is, if not the first, almost the first occasion in the history of the Post Office in which it has ever been suggested that a mail-van driver has betrayed his trust.

Mr. BECKETT: May I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that a man who is not honest to his own mates is not likely to be honest to the Department?

Mr. R. MORRISON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the loss, which will have to be borne by someone, will be borne by the Post Office or by the contractors?

Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I think, as regards liability, that the position of the Post Office and its servants and agents is defined in the Regulations. If there is any question of the exact legal liability, that should be put only after due notice.

Oral Answers to Questions — TWO-SEATER TAXICABS.

Major COLFOX: (by Private Notice): asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the reasons why no two-seater taxicabs have yet been licensed to ply for hire in the Metropolitan Police District, although nearly six months have elapsed since the Order, authorising the licensing of such cabs at a reduced fare, was made?

The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir William Joynson-Hicks): I have throughout been in close touch with the Commissioner of Police on this matter, and I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that there has not been any avoidable delay, either on my part or on that of the Commissioner. The Commissioner has drawn up Regulations, with the requirements of which two-seater taxicabs must comply before they can be licensed for hire. These Regulations are directed to ensuring that the new cabs may be freely manœuvred without unduly obstructing the traffic, and without prejudice to the safety of the passengers and of the public. With a view to preventing delay and inconvenience to the manufacturers, a close liaison has been maintained with the three firms who up till now have interested themselves in the construction of two-seater taxicabs, and a cab, submitted by one of these firms, was approved on 10th June as meeting the Commissioner's requirements. This firm has not vet submitted any cabs of the approved pattern for licence, because it has not, I am informed, been possible to obtain the materials for their manufacture, owing to the present dislocation of industry. The two other firms have both submitted cabs for approval, and
it is not anticipated that they will experience any difficulty in so altering them that they will comply with the Regulations.

Mr. HORE-BELISHA: May I ask whether the Home Secretary has authorised the new name by which these taxicabs will be called when they are on the streets?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I have not heard of any authorised name.

Oral Answers to Questions — SITUATION IN CHINA.

PROTECTION OF BRITISH INTERESTS.

Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALD: I beg to ask the Prime Minister a question of which I have given notice to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs—whether the action taken by the naval authorities in bombarding the town of Wanhsien arose out of instructions given to them by His Majesty's Government, and what action His Majesty's Government have since taken to ascertain the facts regarding the incident, and to institute an inquiry into responsibilities?

Mr. FOOT MITCHELL: had also given private notice to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can inform the House what are the facts connected with the recent trouble at Wanhsien on the Yangtse; what negotiations have taken place on the subject, and what arrangements have been made to protect British interests in this and other regions in China?

The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): I shall answer this question (Mr. MacDonald's) together with a private notice question on the same subject from my hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Foot Mitchell).
The facts regarding the naval action at Wanhsien are briefly as follow:
At the end of August General Yang Sen, the titular Civil Governor of Szechuan, seized two steamers belonging to the China Navigation Company, Limited, alleging that another steamer of the same company had sunk a boat
carrying some of his troops and a certain amount of money. The six British officers of the two steamers were kept in custody by him.
The Commander of His Majesty's Ship "Cockchafer" endeavoured to conduct negotiations for the release of the ships and their officers, but General Yang Sen refused to discuss the matter with him, and threatened to fire on His Majesty's Ship "Cockchafer" if she moved or an ultimatum were delivered, posting troops for this purpose. His Majesty's Consul at Chungking proceeded to Wanhsien, and from 2nd September to 5th September was, under instructions from His Majesty's Minister at Peking, constantly using all his exertions to secure a peaceful settlement of the affair, including the offer of an inquiry, but General Yang Sen proved absolutely unyielding and defiant, ignoring even messages sent to him by Wu Pei-fu, his superior General, and imprisoning the messenger who bore them.
It was in these circumstances that His Majesty's Government reluctantly decided that, if a solution by conciliatory measures proved in the last resort absolutely impossible, the only alternative was to use force to rescue the imprisoned ships' officers. The naval expedition which proceeded to Wanhsien for this purpose was received with heavy fire: the fire was consequently returned. The British casualties were three officers and four seamen killed, two officers and 13 seamen wounded. Of the six imprisoned officers of the Mercantile Marine, five were rescued, the sixth being drowned. The Chinese casualties have not yet been realiably established, but my latest information indicates them to be very much less than originally rumoured.
As a result of this action, Yang Sen offered to discuss further the question of the return of the illegally seized ships, and sent the Commissioner for Foreign Affairs at Chungking to Ichang to meet Rear-Admiral Cameron, Senior Naval Officer on the Yangtse, for this purpose. In these negotiations, our attitude has been that, while we were willing to discuss the holding of an inquiry into the alleged sinking of the boat and of the
drowning of General Yang Sen's soldiers,, the return of the steamers must be a condition precedent.
I am glad to be able to add that my latest information is that one of the steamers has been returned, and the other is now en route for Ichang, while General Yang Sen is reported to be adopting an amicable attitude. On the arrival of the second steamer, the question of holding an inquiry will be considered, and His Majesty's Consul at Ichang is proceeding forthwith to Chungking, with a view to expediting a settlement of all outstanding points connected with the incident.

Mr. LOOKER: Is it not a fact that the upsetting of the boats containing General Yang Sen's soldiers was due to their adopting the notoriously dangerous practice of making fast to the steamer while she was still under weigh?

The PRIME MINISTER: I regret that, without notice, I am not in a position to answer detailed supplementary questions of that nature.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: Is, the right hon. Gentleman in a position to say how many Chinese casualties were among non-military people, and whether firing on the town of Wanhsien was in any way authorised?

The PRIME MINISTER: I am afraid I could not answer those questions without notice.

Major COLFOX: May I ask whether any posthumous rewards for gallantry will be given to Commander Darley and other officers and men who took part in the very gallant engagements?

The PRIME MINISTER: I am not aware whether that has yet been considered.

Mr. THURTLE: May I ask whether or not British gunboats or any other British warships are still patrolling the Yangtse-Kiang?

The PRIME MINISTER: It is not my own Department. I am afraid I shall require notice of any questions of detail of that kind.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: Will the right hon. Gentleman extend any inquiry into
the matter of shooting on Wanhsien, or will the inquiry be solely concerned with the sinking of the vessel?

The PRIME MINISTER: With regard to that again, I have no information.

Mr. BARKER: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are many foreigners in China absolutely unprotected, and that the sending of these gunboats up these rivers is likely to provoke the Chinese, and endanger the lives of these people?

Mr. LOOKER: (by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether any additions have been made to our naval, military and air strength in the Far East to meet the situation which has arisen there; and whether the Government is now satisfied that our forces in China are sufficient to secure the adequate protection of British subjects and British interests?

The PRIME MINISTER: In so far as the naval position is concerned, His Majesty's Government are satisfied that the reinforcements now on their way to China, which consist of H.M.S. "Hermes" and a flotilla of one leader and eight destroyer, together with the forces already in China, will be sufficient for the present to secure adequate protection for British subjects and interests.
So far as the military forces are concerned, the situation up to date has not warranted any military intervention, and no military or air reinforcements have been sent.

Mr. LOOKER: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the menace to the British and foreign communities at Shanghai which would be created by the advance of the Cantonese army to that city, and may we have an assurance that the possibilities of such a menace have not been lost sight of by the Government?

The PRIME MINISTER: That is a very hypothetical question, and I do not think a situation has yet arisen when it would be necessary for me to make any announcement to the House of Commons.

Mr. LOOKER: (by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether any steps are being taken to confer with the Powers interested as to the situation which has arisen in China, and as to any
joint measures to be taken for the protection of the foreign communities and otherwise?

The PRIME MINISTER: No, Sir. His Majesty's Government regard it as a matter for any individual Government concerned to decide for themselves what measures it is advisable or necessary to take for the protection of their nationals or interests abroad, according to the circumstances arising in each case.

Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: May I ask the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to make with regard to the question of boycotting in Canton?

The PRIME MINISTER: The hon. Member has a private notice question down. I do not know whether he is going to put it?

Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: May put the question, then, whether the Prime Minister has any statement to make on the situation in China?

The PRIME MINISTER: That is the question I was expecting the hon. Member to put. I apologise for the length of the answer.
I have already dealt with the Wanhsien incident, in my previous reply. As regards Canton, the House is aware that for over a year past an agitation has been on foot, directed exclusively to the destruction of British trade. The attacks by the boycott organisation on British traders became so intensified as to compel His Majesty's Government to adopt measures to resist such acts of piracy, and orders were accordingly sent to the Commander-in-Chief. China Station, to take steps to seize and disable all boycott patrol beats, and to remove all pickets from British wharves. Operations to this end were taken on 4th September, but at the first sign of naval activity all boycott patrol boats fled. So there was no necessity to effect seizures, nor did His Majesty's ships fire a shot.
These steps evoked a prompt response from the Cantonese Government, who arranged with His Majesty's Consul-General that Chinese police should patrol the river, and guard the wharves. Accordingly, the naval activity was suspended. This arrangement has been
scrupulously observed by the Cantonese Government, and no further incidents have occurred.
On 18th September the Cantonese Government informed His Majesty's Consul-General that they had made arrangements to end the boycott of Hong-Kong at the latest by 10th October, and that they proposed to levy certain taxes on imports and exports, for the purpose, it is understood, of liquidating the strike organisation. A notification to this effect was published in the "Canton Gazette" on 24th September, and at the same time the strike pickets guarding the approaches to Shameen were removed. In the meantime British steamers have been plying to Canton without obstruction, and have secured passengers and full deck cargoes.
As regards Central China, the Cantonese forces have captured Hankow and Hanyang, although Wuchang, the capital of Hupeh, continues to hold out against them. Some fear was felt lest their advent on the Yangtse might lead to a spread of the boycott to that area, but I am glad to say that, although there has been a certain amount of agitation, there has been practically no interference with British trade and industry at Hankow. The extension of the war zone to the Yangtse valley led to a certain amount of firing on British and other steamers. Representations were made to the Cantonese Government., and attacks of this nature now appear practically to have ceased.
Anti-British agitation broke out in the latter half of this month at Chungking, and considerable depredations on British property were committed. It became necessary to evacuate all British women and children. The latest reports, however, indicate a slight improvement in conditions there, and it is hoped that, with the return of the second captured ship, a further improvement will shortly take place.

Mr. MacDONALD: Can the Prime Minister say whether the Government have taken any notice of the fiscal conditions attached to the removal of the boycott by the Cantonese Government?

The PRIME MINISTER: The House will understand that I have not got all these details in my mind, and I think all I can say, in the absence of the
Foreign Secretary—who I am glad to say will be back in a few days—is that that is a matter which is engaging our attention at the present time.

Mr. MACQUISTEN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much of the agitation and boycotting in China has been clue to Soviet Russia?

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Motion made, and Question put,
That, the Proceedings on the Motion relating to the Adjournment of the House (Autumn) be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House).—[The Prime Minister.]

The House divided: Ayes, 241; Noes, 109.

Division No. 436].
AYES.
[3.30 p.m.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.
Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Loder, J. de V.


Albery, Irving James
Fanshawe, Commander G. D.
Looker, Herbert William


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)
Fermoy, Lord
Lougher, L.


Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)
Fielden, E. B.
Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.
Finburgh, S.
Lynn, Sir R. J.


Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.
Ford, Sir P. J.
Macintyre, Ian


Atholl, Duchess of
Forestier-Walker, Sir L.
Macmillan, Captain H.


Atkinson, C.
Foster, Sir Harry S.
Macquisten, F. A.


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.
MacRobert, Alexander M.


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Fraser, Captain Ian
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-


Banks, Reginald Mitchell
Frece, Sir Walter de
Makins, Brigadier-General E.


Barclay-Harvey, C. M.
Galbraith, J. F. W.
Malone, Major P. B.


Barnett, Major Sir Richard
Ganzoni, Sir John
Meller, R. J.


Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)
Gates, Percy.
Merriman, F. B.


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)


Berry, Sir George
Goff, Sir Park
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)


Betterton, Henry B.
Gower, Sir Robert
Moles, Thomas


Blades, Sir George Rowland
Grace, John
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.


Blundell, F. N.
Graham, Frederick F. (Cumbld., N.)
Moore, Sir Newton J.


Boothby, R. J. G.
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.


Bourne, Captain Robert Craft
Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)
Morden, Colonel Walter Grant


Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John
Moreing, Captain A. H.


Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.
Grotrian, H. Brent
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arther Clive


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Gunston, Captain D. W.
Murchison, C. K.


Briggs, J. Harold
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Neville, R. J.


Briscoe, Richard George
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)


Brocklebank, C. E. R.
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
Nicholson, O. (Westminster)


Broun-Lindsay, Major H.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)


Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Nuttall, Ellis


Bullock, Captain M.
Harrison, G. J. C.
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)


Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Oman, Sir Charles William C.


Burman, J. B.
Haslam, Henry C.
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William


Burton, Colonel H. W.
Hawke, John Anthony
Pennefather, Sir John


Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)


Campbell, E. T.
Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)
Perkins, Colonel E. K.


Cassels, J. D.
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Perring, Sir William George


Cautley, Sir Henry S.
Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)


Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt, R. (Prtsmth, S.)
Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frame)


Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)
Phillipson, Mabel


Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Pilcher, G.


Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Pilditch, Sir Philip


Chapman, Sir S.
Holland, Sir Arthur
Power, Sir John Cecil


Charteris, Brigadier-General J.
Holt, Captain H. P.
Preston, William


Christie, J. A.
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Price, Major C. W. M.


Clayton, G. C.
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Radford, E. A.


Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Hopkins, J. W. W.
Ramsden, E.


Cohen, Major J. Brunel
Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)
Rawson, Sir Cooper


Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Reid, Captain A. S. C. (Warrington)


Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.
Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.
Remnant, Sir James


Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Rentoul, G. S.


Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.


Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.
Hume, Sir G. H.
Rice, Sir Frederick


Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)


Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick)
Hurd, Percy A.
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.


Cunliffe, Sir Herbert
Iliffe, Sir Edward M.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Curzon, Captain Viscount
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. F. S.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Dalkeith, Earl of
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Sandeman, A. Stewart


Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)
Jacob, A. E.
Sanders, Sir Robert A.


Davies, Dr. Vernon
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Sandon, Lord


Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Dean, Arthur Wellesley
Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William
Shepperson, E. W.


Dixey, A. C.
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon


Edmondson, Major A. J.
Kindersley, Major Guy M.
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Klnc'dine, C.)


Ellis, R. G.
King, Captain Henry Douglas
Smith-Carington, Neville W.


Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)
Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Smithers, Waldron


Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Sprot, Sir Alexander
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)


Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)


Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Tinne, J. A.
Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)


Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Windsor-Clive, Lieut-Colonel George


Storry-Deans, R.
Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Wise, Sir Fredric


Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Waddington, R.
Withers, John James


Streatfield, Captain S. R.
Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Womersley, W. J.


Strickland, Sir Gerald
Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).


Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Watts, Dr. T.
Wragg, Herbert


Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Wells, S. R.
Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.


Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.



Tasker, Major R. Inigo
Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—




Major Hennessy and Major Cope.


NOES.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Hore-Belisha, Leslie
Sitch, Charles H.


Adamson, W. M. (Stall., Cannock)
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)
Slesser, Sir Henry H.


Ammon, Charles George
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)
Snell, Harry


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip


Batey, Joseph
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)


Beckett, John (Gateshead)
Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)
Stamford, T. W.


Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Stephen, Campbell


Bromfield, William
Kelly, W. T.
Sullivan, J.


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Kennedy, T.
Sutton, J. E.


Buchanan, G.
Lansbury, George
Taylor, R. A.


Clowes, S.
Lawrence, Susan
Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)


Clynes, Right Hon. John R.
Lawson, John James
Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)


Connolly, M.
Lee, F.
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Lowth, T.
Thurtle, Ernest


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Lunn, William
Tinker, John Joseph


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)
Townend, A. E.


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Montague, Frederick
Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.


Day, Colonel Harry
Morris, R. H.
Viant, S. P.


Duncan, C.
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen


Dunnico, H.
Murnin, H.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Fenby, T. D.
Oliver, George Harold
Watts-Morgan, Lt. Col. D. (Rhondda)


Gardner, J. P.
Owen, Major G.
Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney


George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd
Palin, John Henry
Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah


Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)
Paling, W.
Westwood, J.


Greenall, T.
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Whiteley, W.


Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Ponsonby, Arthur
Wiggins, William Martin


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Potts, John S.
Wilkinson, Ellen C.


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Groves, T.
Riley, Ben
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Grundy, T. W.
Rose, Frank H.
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)


Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
Saklatvala, Shapurji
Windsor, Walter


Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Salter, Dr. Alfred
Wright, W.


Hardie, George D.
Scrymgeour, E.
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Harris, Percy A.
Scurr, John



Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Sexton, James
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Hayes, John Henry
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Charles Edwards.


Hirst, G. H.
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis



Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Orders of the Day — EMERGENCY POWERS ACT. 1920 (REGULATIONS).

The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir William Joynson-Hicks): I beg to move,
That the Regulations made by His Majesty in Council under the Emergency Powers Act, 1920, by Order dated the 22nd day of September, 1926, shall continue in force, subject, however, to the provisions of Section 2 (4) of the said Act.
This is the sixth time, I think, that I have moved this Resolution to confirm the Regulations made under the Emergency Powers Act, 1920. On the last occasion when I submitted this Resolution to the House I was accused of having made too lengthy a speech, and I am sure it will be for the convenience of the House that I should not speak so long this time. I do not think it is necessary. [HON. MEMBERS: "Go on!"] A month ago the main accusation against putting these Regulations into force was that there was no real need for them, because the country was so quiet. The House knows, in the main, why, in the view of His Majesty's Government, it is necessary that these Regulations should be passed. We have the Act of 1920 before us, and we are of opinion—and for that opinion we are responsible—that a condition of emergency has arisen, and when such a condition arises it is the duty of the Government to put such Regulations as they see fit into force, subject only to the assent of the House of Commons.
We have from month to month put these Regulations in force and they have from month to month received the approval of the House of Commons. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] At any rate they have been passed by the House of Commons and a majority of hon. Members have expressed their approval. In a House of Commons constituted like the present one very few things could be unanimously passed. I do not intend to repeat the observations which I have made before on this subject. [HON. MEMBERS "Why?"] I will not repeat them out of deference to the susceptibilities of hon. Members opposite. On each occasion I have thought it my duty to give the figures for each month in
regard to cases which have come under these Regulations. I am very sorry to have to announce on this occasion that the cases which occurred last month have been much more frequent than in previous months, with the exception of the month of the General Strike. From the 22nd August last to September 22nd, 309 cases have occurred and 212 of them were under Regulation 21; 50 under the Regulations relating to the supply of coal and so forth, and 19 were under Regulation No. 20. I am sure the House will be pleased to know that in regard to these prosecutions there were only 13 cases where the magistrates thought it necessary to inflict the punishment of imprisonment. There were 189 cases in which fines were inflicted, and there are 61 cases still pending.

Captain WEDGWOOD BENN: Has the right hon. Gentleman used his powers under Regulation 33, relating to arrest without warrant?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Those are not powers to be used by me, but they are powers given under the Regulation to the police, and a very large number of those cases have occurred.

Mr. JOHNSTON: May I draw the Home Secretary's attention to the fact that part of Regulation No. 33 can only be used with his assent?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I apologise to the hon. and gallant Member, because I am mistaken. My powers under Regulation No. 33 have not been used at all during the last month. I was confused on this point by the sudden jumping up of the hon. and gallant Member.

Captain BENN: I will send the right hon. Gentleman a copy of the Regulation.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The hon. and gallant Member is always very courteous, and I shall be much obliged to him for helping me or correcting me in any way that is necessary. In previous Debates the fear has been expressed that when the miners began to return to work there would necessarily, or at any rate very probably, be steps taken to prevent them going back to work, and that cases of intimidation and even instances of violence would occur. The figures unfortunately prove that this month a number of cases have occurred in those particular
districts where there has been more or less a return of the men to work. I will take four counties, namely, Nottingham, Derbyshire, Staffordshire and Warwickshire, where the return to work has been most pronounced.

Mr. GRUNDY: You are making out a case for the coalowners.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: On the 24th of this month there were 17,678 miners at work in Nottingham. In the previous month there were only about 600 at work: there were no cases under the Regulations at all, and this month there are 20. In Derbyshire the number at work has risen from 6,000 to over 20,000, and the number of cases which in the previous month was only four has increased during the last month to 131 cases. Similarly, in Staffordshire, where the rise in the number of miners at work in round figures has been from 10,000 to 16,000, the number of cases under the Regulations has risen from six to 13. In Warwickshire, where the increase in the number at work has been from 5,000 to nearly 12,000, the number of cases under the Regulations is 21.

Mr. STEPHEN: Will the right hon. Gentleman say where he gets his figures of the number of miners at work?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I get them from the Mines Department, and I get the figures as to the number of cases from the police.

Mr. HARDIE: The right hon. Gentleman has given certain figures. Can he tell us what proportion of those totals relates to safety men?

Sir W. JOYNSON - HICKS: Very roughly speaking, the number of ordinary men at work is something over 100,000, and the safety men must be between 50,000 and 60,000.

Mr. MARDY JONES: The Home Secretary says there are over 100,000 men at work in the mines. Has he made any investigation to ascertain how many of those men were never down the pit at all until the stoppage began?

Mr. SPENCER: The right hon. Gentleman said he was dealing with the period between the 22nd August and the 22nd September. Is he dealing with precisely the same dates now?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I am dealing with the period between the 22nd August and the 24th September.

Mr. GRUNDY rose—

Mr. SPEAKER: I must ask the hon. Member not to interrupt.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I am giving such information as I have in my possession. Perhaps hon. Members will allow me to complete my statement, and they can ask any further questions, because practically every Regulation can be raised in the form of an Amendment, and then I shall be glad to answer questions more fully. The point I was making is that as a larger number of men are going back to work, there has been an increase in the cases occurring under the Emergency Regulations. In the four counties I have mentioned the number has increased from 11 to 191 in one month. I think that disposes of the suggestion that there was no need for these Regulations.
In the previous month, it is quite true that there was a very small number of cases, but, human nature being what it is, it is not surprising that, if miners who are out of work to-day see large numbers of their friends and colleagues going back, they should endeavour, as far as they legally can, to prevent them from doing so. They are, of course, quite entitled—and I do not for a moment say otherwise—they are quite entitled, within the limits of the law, if they can, to persuade any of their colleagues not to go back to work. On the other hand, the responsibility is equally great upon myself and upon His Majesty's Government to see that those limits are not exceeded, and that, if the limits of the law are exceeded—if peaceful persuasion degenerates into intimidation or, even worse than intimidation, into riot—it is the duty of the Government of the day, and it would he the duty of any Government of the day, to step in. It would be the duty of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, if he were in control of the Government at this time, and I am sure he will agree that, if the law were disobeyed he himself would be one of the first to enforce the law as the law stood. We have had his speeches and his professed opinions, and I am quite sure
he would not deny that that is the position. An that is solely the position that His Majesty's Government takes up to-day. The law regarding the right of men to work must be maintained, and it is for that purpose, and for that purpose only, that these Regulations are now being laid before the House.
I know there will be questions with regard to one of these cases. The hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Paling) has very kindly given me notice that he proposes to raise the question of the action of the police at the Bullcroft Colliery. That being so, I think it would be more courteous to him that I should allow him to develop his case against me, and then supply the answer, which I think the House will deem to be a sufficient one. There is only one other point that I should like to mention, and that is with regard to Regulation No. 22, as far as it affects processions. On the last occasion I was asked many questions with regard to my action under this Regulation. There has been only one case during the past month in which I thought it my duty to consent to the application made to me by the Chief Constable of Glamorgan, I think it was to authorise him to prohibit a procession, in which, I believe, an hon. Member opposite was announced to speak. I am always sorry to prevent an hon. Member from speaking, but, in the particular circumstances of the case, I felt it my duty, having regard to the strong case made by the Chief Constable, to grant his request that he might be impowered to prohibit these processions during the particular period in question. That is the only case in which the Regulation has had to be enforced during the past month, and, as all the other cases are the subject of separate Amendments, I will content myself at this moment with moving that the Regulations be accepted.

Mr. RAMSAY MacDONALD: The Home Secretary began his speech by reminding us that this is the sixth time he has moved this Resolution. It is the sixth time that I am going to oppose it. The Home Secretary was quite under a misapprehension, however, when he said that he felt last time that we objected to the length of his speech. Indeed, we did not. All that we objected to in the right hon. Gentleman's speech last time was
its irrelevancy, and to-day his most captious critic could not raise that objection. Last time, when he defended his Regulations, he said: "Give me these Regulations again, because, you see, there are no cases worth speaking about under them. I am asking that these Regulations should be renewed because the country, really, is so quiet." To-day he changes his position, and says: "I have actually got 309 cases." Just think of it—309 cases, with over 1,000,000 men out of work and going through a most critical time. When, as he says quite rightly and as we have to recognise, there is a certain breakaway in certain districts—a condition of affairs that will give him and his police a most trying time—there are 309 cases from John o' Groats to Lands End.
There are two observations that I would make on those cases. First of all, the Home Secretary admits that, of the 309, no fewer than 212 are for sedition. He knows as well as I do that sedition is a thing that is undefinable—that anyone getting up in a temper may utter a few sentences which have no effect at all upon anybody, the worst effect that they have being upon himself, and he regrets them as soon as he has uttered them. [Interruption.] Really, I am not going to sneer at the Home Secretary. He quite rightly says that we arc human. He knows that what. I am saying is perfectly true, that, on occasions like this, when men have to be got together and when the conduct of a dispute has to be seen to, if he liked to apply that Regulation, instead of 212 cases, he could have had 2,212 cases during the last month; and when he had them there would not be a single case that a man of common sense would think of handing over to the police. That is the situation—309 cases, of which 212 are under Regulation 33—[HON. MEMBERS: "Twenty-one!"]—I get mixed up, like the Home Secretary—under Regulation 21; and only 13 of the cases that have come before magistrates and have been settled by magistrates have been sent to gaol. Really, I was hoping that, before the sixth time of asking came, the Home Secretary would have taken a broad, common-sense view of the matter and stopped the whole thing.
4.0 P.M.
My second observation is this: It may he 309 cases, or it may be 3,009 cases, but that is not the interesting, the sug-
gestive and the enlightening figure. What the Home Secretary ought to have told us, and what I should like him to tell us, is how many of the 309 cases could not be dealt with by the ordinary law. That is really the point. The Home Secretary is not justifying prosecutions of evil-doers. No one is asking him to do that. He is not asking the House of Commons to enable him to do that. If he were, I do not know that I would stand here and refuse his Resolution. But what he is asking the House of Commons to do is to say as a preliminary, "We know that the ordinary law is not effective. We know that, if the Home Secretary and the police forces of the country were left with the ordinary law in order to meet the difficulties of this coal dispute, they would be thwarted again and again, to such an extent and in such a number of instances that the whole nation would run the danger of lapsing into a serious state of lawlessness and disorder." That is his case, and, if he cannot make that case out, then he has not: made a case out for his Regulations. If he looks through his 309 cases, he will not find half-a-dozen that could not have been dealt with quite as effectively under the ordinary law as under his Regulations. During this last month, having had a little more leisure than usual, I have been trying to read the cases and to get put into my possession local reports of some of the chief cases that have been tried, some of which are included in the 309 cases, and some of which are cases reported to us last month. I am bound to say that I have not yet come across a case that could not have been dealt with under the ordinary law. Since I started this investigation about a month ago I have not come across a single case that I venture to say, in the opinion of anyone with an absolutely impartial mind, could not have been dealt with under the ordinary law
I have, however, come across evidence by witness after witness—some of them men I know personally, who have been up either as accused persons, or as witnesses—which, though I should not like to say what view I should have taken if I had been on the bench and heard the statements made, judging as a news-
paper reader, have impressed me with this, that the existence of these Regulations does give the police force, the chief of police and his subordinates, men who have very difficult work to do, a sort of assumption that the law is rather lax for them as well as for the magistrates who are going to apply the Regulations. I am quite sure that the Home Secretary sees the psychological point that I am making. If he and I have to administer the ordinary law, there is something rigid and severe for us, and we feel that we have to be tremendously careful how far we go, whereas, if Parliament says to us, "This is a special time; this is a special occasion" and if there are Regulations which practically hint to us to this effect—"Use your powers and when you have used them there will not be too rigid an enquiry into the conditions under which you use them," the psychological effect is looseness in the administration of the law.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The right hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that I have said that?

Mr. MacDONALD: No.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I wanted to he quite clear. It is only hypothetical?

Mr. MacDONALD: I hope that no one will get that impression from what I am saying. I say that when the House of Commons opens up the law as it were, loosens its rigidity and its sort of be-wigged formality, which is a very important thing to be attached to the administration of the law, and makes it more of an ordinary, casual affair by passing these Regulations, it does have that psychological effect upon what I would call generally the police forces of the country, and consequently, if hon. Members will read those reports as I have read them, they will find very convincing evidence both by witnesses and accused persons to show that when there has been disturbance it bas ant always been solely caused by those who have been brought before the magistrates. Therefore, these very Regulations are multiplying the cases. If the right hon. Gentleman trusted to the ordinary law, first of all, the ordinary law would be good enough for him, and, secondly, his cases would
not be so many, and yet not a single criminal would escape. That is my case against him. I respectfully submit to the House that the Home Secretary has not made out a case for his special Regulations. He has made out a case for the law. He has made out a case for the ordinary law. He has made out a case for policemen. He has made out a case for magistrates. He has made out a case for fines and imprisonment. But who asked him to make out a case for that? He is knocking at an open door. He has got to make out a case for special law, special administration, special sentences, and special arrests, and I venture to say that he has not uttered one single sentence that justifies the Resolution that he has now moved.

Captain BENN: The right hon. Gentleman, neither on this occasion nor on any other of the six on which he has introduced this Resolution, has attempted to justify it on the only ground on which it could be justified. Not only so, but he admitted to-day that Regulation 33, which gives him the most objectionable power of arrest without warrant, has never been used at all. Is it to be supposed that this House wishes to endow the Home Office with power, which even they are not called upon to use? Surely the power given to the Home Secretary should be adequate for dealing with crime, but not more than adequate, and certainly should not allow him latitude to deal with things which in the judgment of many people are not crime at all. As regards Regulation 21, may I remind the House that the right hon. Gentleman has declined to put at the service of Members even the words of the charge in these cases. I pressed him two months ago, inasmuch as it is almost impossible to get them from the newspapers' reports of these cases, to give us the actual words of the charge, so that we should know what it was people were doing which rendered them liable to fines and imprisonment under Regulation 21. The right hon. Gentleman has declined to put that elementary information at the service of Members of the House of Commons. It leads us to suppose, and rightly to suppose, that the charges are intended to be vague, and that the law is intended to be vague in order to give an opportunity for putting down move-
ments and expressions of opinion which in themselves no one would regard as being criminal.
We are sliding into regarding these Regulations as part of the normal law. It is a pitiable thing to see the Home Secretary or the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department getting up month after month and saying, "I have spoken so often about these Regulations; what is the use of saying anything more about them?" The right hon. Gentleman ought to justify them more vehemently and cogently, if he can, every month in, which he continues Le exercise these powers. Hon. Gentlemen opposite are making a great mistake in permitting the Executive to seize these powers. It must be remembered that the day may come when they will not be supporters of the Government but will be Members of the Opposition. Under these powers all the processes of legislation are suspended, and a simple Resolution of the House enables much to be done which in the ordinary course would require sanction by Statute. These Regulations do not merely affect personal liberty, but also personal property and personal conduct. My right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) yesterday advised the use of one of these Regulations for bringing the coalowners, who are standing in the way of industrial peace, to reason. If the Conservative party insist month after month on passing these Regulations, it will be useless for them to rely upon the vote of the House of Lords in any subsequent Parliament to prevent similar Regulations being put into force again. There will have been a strong precedent. Six times the House of Commons and the House of Lords have consented to these Regulations. The Home Secretary professes to see in them a code.
Hon. Gentlemen opposite may find that the time will come—I will not say it "will find," because I value liberty greater than the power in the hands of any Government—when their acquiescence and their subtleness to-day and on all these occasions in giving the Home Secretary these powers may turn very much to their disadvantage. The Regulations also affect personal liberty. They provide for arrest without warrant upon such charges as attempting to induce someone to do something
calculated to cause disaffection among the civilian population. There is much in these Regulations which has no specific meaning at all, and must be interpreted according to the prejudices and political opinions of the bench. Last time we were told by the Under-Secretary of State that nearly every Justice on the benches before which these cases come is interested in the coal industry.

Mr. GRUNDY: That is a fact.

Captain BENN: That is a very interesting admission. Someone moved an Amendment providing that Justices with a financial interest in the coal industry should not try these cases. What was the reply? It was that practically all the Justices had a financial interest in the coal industry. In fact, the Under-Secretary of State said that, if the House passed the Amendment, it would be impossible in some cases to fill the bench. What a bench before which to bring a man charged with attempting to persuade someone to do something calculated to cause disaffection among the civilian population! I see the junior Member for the City of London (Sir V. Bowater) in his place to-day, and I have long wanted the opportunity of asking him a question. He is a magistrate, and sits on the Bench as these other men sit on the Bench, and our case is that, before many of these Benches it is impossible to get a judicial and fair interpretation of such vague charges. About a year ago the hon. Gentleman had brought before him a young man charged with having stolen a newspaper van. The hon. Gentleman first of all congratulated the accused upon the leniency which had been shown—he was one of those who are called "British patriots"—by the Public Prosecutor, an official of the Home Office. That was a strange statement to come from the Bench. Then, in binding him over, he went on to say: "Young fellows like you ought to be in the police force." These are the people who are to be turned into police constables, and who, in the judgment of the hon. Member for the City of London, are to write down in their notebooks what words they consider are calculated to cause disaffection. "Your efforts to be good citizens"—that was
the description from the Bench—"would be best promoted by joining the police force." Is the hon. Gentleman surprised that there are people who object to putting these powers into the hands of magistrates who exhibit such bias?
Who are the Ministers who are claiming these powers? There is the Under-Secretary of State. I take him first. He is of the opinion that the people of this country have a selection. They can either be loyal to the King and Constitution, or loyal to the Red International, but if they are loyal to the King and Constitution they must be Conservatives. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] If hon. Members question that, let me give a quotation:
Captain Hacking, M.P., and Two Loyalties.
A person whose loyalty to King and Country and Parliament in which the country had grown great, and through which we had evolved to our present structure.
That was loyalty to the Conservative party. The other loyalty was the loyalty to the Red International. What are unhappy individuals like myself—[Interruption.] That is the mentality of hon. Members. They go to meetings, and explain that the War was fought on behalf of Tariff Reform and the Safeguarding of Industry Act. Now let me take the engaging and always courteous and sportsmanlike figure of the Home Secretary. He has a very strong following among the Conservative party. He is very modest. I notice he told them at Hounslow, "I am not the only strong man in the Government." I will quote his words:
I do not want you to believe that the Home Secretary is the strong man of the Government. I am only one member of His Majesty's Government.
What modesty! The right hon. Gentleman is about the only member of the Government who has any achievement to his credit. He got a charter for Twickenham.

Mr. SPEAKER: Is that under these Regulations?

Captain BENN: I am afraid that is merely an obiter dictum, or a gloss, as to the right hon. Gentleman's credit. But although he is a stern figure, he is not unbending. I do not know—this is strictly relevant to Regulation 21—how hon. Members have been spending their
holidays, but the Primrose League has been giving a great deal of entertainment to the electors of the country. I remember Lord Curzon stating, in propagating the Consumers' League, "Wherever the population is densest, there form a branch." The Primrose League has now a new attraction for the wavering voter. It is called the Cabinet film. I am going to quote a sentence from this film which, believe me, is strictly relevant. When those who enter these fetes and so forth have enjoyed the ordinary round of gaiety, and sung the National Anthem, they are admitted to the film. The film they see is a picture of the Home Secretary on horseback, and then follow these words—relevant to Regulation 21. People who waste their time reading Milton's "Areopagitica" under the impression that it has something to do with free speech should listen to this poem. I am not good at reading poetry, but I should like to read this. These are the words published by and with the authority of His Majesty's principal Secretary of State for the Home Office:
Jix the boy for work,
Jix the boy for play.
Notice the cumulative literary effect of the repetition of the word,
Jix the lad when times are bad
To keep the reds away.
[HON. MEMBERS: "Author!"] It is published by the official organisation of the Conservative and Unionist party, and I say the time has come to put a stop to the performances of this buffoonery, fiddling away the great Charter, and playing chuck-farthing with the Constitution of our country.

Sir HENRY SLESSER: I beg to move, in line three, after "1926," to insert the words "other than Regulations 21 and 22."
These are the Regulations with which we are principally concerned. The Leader of the Opposition has already said that the real charge we make against these Regulations is that all the offences they deal with can actually be dealt with to-day properly and efficiently under the existing law. That is a very important question. If it be the truth that the existing law is competent to deal with all these offences, a very large part, if not
the whole, of the justification for the continuance of the Regulations disappears, and I want, in the first place, therefore, to follow up what my right hon. Friend said and show that it is actually the fact that the subject matter of Regulation 21 can be and is dealt with by the existing law. It starts off dealing with the question of sedition. Although my right hon. Friend said these offences were dealing with sedition—that is the sidenote of the general Regulation—I think the right hon. Gentleman, as I understood him, indicated that the bulk of them were really cases rather of impeding or interfering with men going to work rather than sedition in its true sense. I did not understand him to say, specifically, that any case actually of sedition had come under these Regulations during the last month at all, but let me assume that it has. We have had in this country a law against sedition. I think the memory of man knoweth not to the contrary. We have laws dealing with treason, with treason, felony and with sedition, and there is inserted into this Regulation the rather dangerous term "disaffection"—dangerous in this sense, that while it is true that causing disaffection is one clement of sedition, it is treated here as a new offence altogether and as something beyond sedition, It is rather interesting to observe that when the discussion on this very Regulation took place under the Emergency Powers Act at the time of the general strike, the Attorney-General told us that disaffection might mean something rather more than sedition at Common Law, that it was not a mere synonym and was, therefore, I understand, to that extent actually extending the law.
My case is that the present law dealing with sedition is quite competent to deal with all seditious utterances of any kind whatever. It deals with any acts calculated to cause disaffection or ill-will, and it only has this distinction from the Regulation, that a person charged under the existing law must be tried before a judge and jury. If the right hon. Gentleman is to make out his case, he has to say, in substance, that there is something in the existing coal stoppage which makes it inexpedient that a man who is seditious should be charged before a jury, because that is the only difference made, that the jury drops out. I should like to
know whether the right hon. Gentleman really is prepared to say that, supposing someone is ill-advised enough to make a speech which the police think to be seditious, its effect on coal being won at present is a reason for denying that person the right of trial by jury, because I want to get at the concrete difficulties and mischiefs to which these Regulations are directed. So far as sedition is concerned the only change is the denial of trial by jury. I do not know on what ground that can be justified. A man can be arrested and can stand his trial, he can be committed, the powers of the police to stop him uttering seditious words can all be exercised without prejudice and without doing away with a jury. He can be arrested and committed and brought before a magistrate, and in extreme cases bail can be refused, and yet he may have the right of trial by jury preserved side by side with the removal of a man from the sphere of his seditious operations. I take the strongest ground that can be put against us. On no ground is there any case for removing from that man, even if he is a probable danger, the right of trial by jury.
May I point out the enormous advantage there is in having this trial by jury. I have pointed it out before, but as I have been unsuccessful in converting the Home Secretary, I will point it out again. You get the direction of the Judge. You get that careful consideration of all the elements of the case which must be missing in a rapid trial before a bench of magistrates. Sedition is an offence of so serious a nature that the law has always regarded it as a matter for a jury. The right hon. Gentleman told us on a former occasion that he was only half a lawyer. I am going to say he is three-quarters, if not a whole lawyer. He will remember that in the 18th century one of the great subjects of dispute was the treatment of seditious libel. Was it to be tried by a Judge or by a jury? Were the jurors to be judges of the fact? That was the great question that was raised by Fox's Libel Act. Under that Act, which chiefly dealt with seditious libel and libels of that kind, there was a right to a jury. Under this Regulation, not only is the right to a jury removed, but instead of putting back the law in the position it was before Fox's Act, that a Judge
instead of a jury should hear a case, you are now substituting a bench of magistrates for a Judge. So we are actually worse off under this Regulation than before the middle of the 18th century. Then at least you had determination by a jury. Now you have determination by worthy, honourable, conscientious, but legally ignorant gentlemen who serve their country by sitting on a bench of magistrates and who never were intended before these Regulations were passed to exercise any such functions. So much for sedition.
I pass now to that Section of the Regulations the object of which is to prevent people interfering with the right of others, and impeding the distribution of food, and so on. I have pointed out before to the right hon. Gentleman and I pointed out to the Attorney-General at the time of the general strike, that the words in the Regulation:
Nothing in these Regulations shall prevent a person peacefully persuading another to strike,
must mean something. Whatever the Regulations may mean, they do not destroy the rights, whether they are wise or unwise rights, which exist under the Trade Disputes Act, permitting peaceful picketing. The Attorney-General, in answer to me, agreed with my proposition. No Regulation can make it an offence for any person to take part in a strike by peacefully persuading any other persons to take part in the strike. Regulation 21 provides:
A person shall not he guilty of an offence under this Regulation by reason only of his taking part in a strike or peacefully persuading any other person to take part in a strike.
In the absence of any Regulation to that effect, the law as it stands to-day in regard to peaceful persuasion is unaffected. Tinder the existing law, directly persuasion ceases to be peaceful the offender falls under the penalties of the Conspiracy and Protection of Property Act, 1875. As the Home Secretary has said, and I agree with him, directly persuasion ceases to be anything but absolutely peaceful, it falls under the Act of 1875. Therefore, the existing law is adequate to deal with these cases. There is nothing to justify the existence of an extraordinary law.
May I now deal with a point which is even more fundamental? The Emergency Powers Act as a whole can only be used
when there is a state of general emergency. When you have any dispute which is not of such wide dimensions as to constitute a general emergency, you cannot pass these Regulations; you cannot alter the law. You have to rely upon the Act of 1875. In other words, you are in this absurd position, that if the whole of this dispute were limited to the Midlands area you could not use these Regulations, but because other men are out of work in other parts of the country you have a dispute of such general dimensions that in the Midlands area you can use these particular Regulations. That is a wholly illogical position. I do not believe that it was ever intended by the authors of this Emergency Powers Act that these sort of Regulations should ever be drafted. I have read the discussions which took place on the Second Reading of the Emergency Powers Bill in 1920, when the late Mr. Bonar Law and the present Home Secretary spoke. On that occasion the right hon. Gentleman was by no means so sure of the expediency or the validity of these Regulations as he is to-day. He got up, I will not say in a captions spirit—perhaps that is not the right word to use—but in a guarded, careful, and criticising mood, and I do not blame him. On the Second Reading of that Bill in 1920, under which the present Regulations are made, he said:
I have felt a real anxiety with regard to this Bill, not because some such Bill as this is not needed. … My anxiety is of an entirely different character. It is an anxiety as to any alteration in the constitutional position of the House of Commons. I am not arguing that powers should not he given, for the Leader of the House has convinced me that powers should be given to the Government; but this Bill, in effect, rivets for all time the previsions of these Defence of the Realm Act Regulations on the country, and does it without any interference by Parliament.
I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will not want to run away from his own Language—
The Leader of the Opposition told us that the Regulations made by the Government might last for fourteen days. Under the provisions of this Bill, if it is passed and Parliament is not sitting, the Government may declare that an emergency has arisen, and then Parliament need not be summoned for fourteen days, during the whole of which time the fresh powers under this Bill, and any Regulations made under them, could be put into operation, and then when Parliament meets there is a further fourteen days during which the Regulations apply until a Resolution is
passed by the House to the contrary. So it is clear the Government may make any Regulations they like within the four corners of this Bill. Heaven knows, the Bill is wide enough, and those Regulations may enure, whatever Government is in power, for 27 days at least if Parliament is not sitting.
The right hon. Gentleman went on to say:
I am not at all sure as a Member of the House of Commons that it is wise to give any Government such enormous powers as those uncontrolled by the action of Parliament.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I was not dealing then with this Bill.

Sir H. SLESSER: The right hon. Gentleman was dealing with the power which exists under this Act of putting Regulations into force before they obtain the consent of Parliament. He went on to say:
This Bill deals with the preservation of peace, with questions of food, light, transport, in fact everything which conduces to the well-being of the people of this country. The Government can make any Regutions. They may commandeer under these Regulations any man's property—it may he right or wrong—food or coal, and the Government have the power to do that without the intervention of the House of Commons. I am not at all sure that under the Bill as it is now drawn they cannot go further and make Regulations—I believe they can—declaring enforced labour on any one of us in regard to the distribution of coal, transport, or what not."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th October, 1920; cols. 1420–1421, Vol. 133.]
I do not propose to read the whole of what the right hon. Gentleman said, but I think he will agree with me that he did feel at the time that Regulations under this Act should be used with extraordinary caution and care, not merely with the consent of the House of Commons, but that the use of them altogether should be a matter of extraordinary care. I want to lay down this proposition—I know it is useless to expect the right hon. Gentleman to accede to it in the middle of this dispute—that on another occasion the right hon. Gentleman should reconsider these Regulations and delete all those which are really unnecessary. Take the law as it exists, confine his disciplinary Regulations merely to those cases which he thinks go beyond the ordinary Common Law, and not abolish the right of trial by jury. If he does that, then I think that if we are brought face to face with such a situation again,
it will not be necessary to have six or seven debates on these contentious Regulations.
I have never heard the right hon. Gentleman give an answer to my question as to why he wishes to dispense with the right to a jury. I have asked that question six times, and I ask it for the seventh time. I have never had an answer. If and when the right hon. Gentleman does answer, will he say in what way the present law is inadequate? Will he point out in what way the present law is not adequate to deal with the matters contemplated in Regulation 21. It will be idle for the hon. and learned Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten) to give us a general speech on the deficiency of trade union law. That may or may not be the case, but it has nothing to do with these Regulations. This Regulation does not deal with the question of strikes. It only deals with what we may call. criminal acts. If those are dealt with by the ordinary law, then, in Heaven's name—if I may quote the hon. Member's pious ejaculation on the last occasion—why not resort to the general law? I have also an objection to Regulation 22. That Regulation deals with public meetings and processions. There the right hon. Gentleman may say that he is taking powers which are not covered entirely by the ordinary law. I hope hon. Members will bear in mind this fact that it is only when you get an enormous cessation of labour which practically spreads over the whole kingdom that these Regulations come into operation at all. You may have an area teeming with sedition, full of disaffection and where all sorts of violence and riot is going on, but you cannot use the Regulations under this Act, because the whole thing is covered by the provision that the trouble must be of such a general nature that it imperils the supply of food, fuel, etc., for the whole country. The whole thing is illogical. Emergency arising from want of food, fuel, etc., is one thing, while emergency arising from riot and disorder is another. Some hon. Members seem to think that in any limited area these Regulations can be brought into force. Let me refer to the governing words of the whole matter. It is only when
it appears to His Majesty that any action has been taken or is immediately threatened by any persons or body of persons of such
a nature and on so extensive a scale as to be calculated, by interfering with the supply and distribution of food, water, fuel, or light ….
that action can be taken. That means that the emergency must be something in the nature of a general cessation of labour. You can have a general cessation which is absolutely peaceful, and you can use these Regulations. On the other hand, you can have a partial cessation which is absolutely violent, and you cannot use these Regulations. If we consider what was the intention of Parliament when it passed the original Act, we shall find that it only uses the words "preservation of peace." The whole of this vast mass of Regulations is like a pyramid depending upon the words "preservation of peace." I cannot believe that it was the intention of. Parliament, when it passed the Act, to preserve peace by doing away with the trial by jury. How do you preserve peace by doing away with trial by jury?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: When the hon. and learned Gentleman refers to these Regulations as a pyramid depending upon the words "the preservation of peace," I would point out to him that if he looks at Section 2 of the Act, he will see that it provides that Regulations may be made where
His Majesty may deem it necessary for the preservation of the peace, for securing and regulating the supply and distribution of food, water, fuel, light, and other necessities, for maintaining the means of transit or locomotion, and for any other purposes essential to the public safety and the life of the community.

Sir H. SLESSER: I am much obliged to the right. hon. Gentleman. Of course, the main object of these Regulations, and that is my case, is to preserve the supply of food, fuel, light, etc. I agree that the words "essential to the life of the community" are inserted to ensure that the people should get food, fuel and the necessities of life during the cessation of work, but it is important to note that these Regulations depend upon the words "preservation of peace." I have not dealt with those things not relevant to Regulation 21, concerning the supply of coal. This Regulation is mainly designed for the preservation of peace.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Regulation 21 deals not merely with sedition, but with any Act likely to
impede, delay, or restrict the supply- or distribution of food, water, fuel, light, or other necessities.
The very Regulation which the hon. and learned Member suggests does not deal with these matters does, in fact, deal with them.

Sir H. SLESSER: What I was saying was that the Act itself cannot make it an offence for a person peacefully to persuade another person to take part in a strike. You come down to this: The existing law, under the Act of 1875, makes intimidation or molestation already an illegal act, and the only thing that this Regulation does is to do away with trial by jury.

Sir GERALD HOHLER: This is summary jurisdiction, not an indictment. In the old days you would have had an indictment and a very heavy penalty. Here you have a penalty of only three months.

Sir H. SLESSER: That is an entirely different point, and I quite agree with my hon. and learned Friend. When he says that this is summary jurisdiction, not an indictment., he is saying what I am saying. The hon. and learned Gentleman will agree that the fact of indictment necessitates a jury. The fact of summary jurisdiction means no jury. Therefore, the effect of the Regulations is to allow a person to be tried otherwise than by a jury.

Mr. HARNEY: What would be the effect if the Home Secretary found that "it appeared to him" that there was a state of general disaffection, and it was entirely local, and it "appeared" to no one else? Is the Home Secretary's view sufficient?

Sir H. SLESSER: My hon. and learned Friend should put that question to the Home Secretary. One of the advantages of sitting on the Opposition side of the House is that one has not to answer questions. I think the answer is that the thing is so loosely worded and so contrived that it has only to appear to the Home Secretary that such and such a state of affairs is so, and it is so. He has merely to contemplate a state of affairs, and it is so. The hon. and
learned Member will remember that the Early Fathers spoke of the Deity contemplating, and it was so. These Regulations go very much beyond "the preservation of the peace." If the Home Secretary will read the speech which was made by the late Mr. Bonar Law in introducing the, Emergency Powers Act on the date I have mentioned, he will find that there was not a shadow of a suggestion before the House of Commons at that time that the general structure of the law or the nature or ambit of offences was to be enlarged or altered in any way. The Whole of his speech was devoted to the emergency which he said was very critical, because it would deprive the country of its fuel supply. He said it did not apply to fuel only. He spoke of huge stocks of coal. He said:
It, is obvious that we must have under our control the means of transferring those necessaries of life.''—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th October, 1920; col. 1400; vol. 133.]
Then he went on to give details, and one was the preservation of the peace. There was not a suggestion of an extension of disaffection, not a suggestion of persons being arrested, "because a situation has arisen, etc." It was the "preservation of the peace." What can that mean? It can only mean that where people commit specific breaches of the peace they may be specifically dealt with under the Regulations. I believe that this whole matter and the tendency of legislation in recent years is to take an Act, and with slender authority to build up a whole mass of bureaucratic Regulations. To such Regulations right hon. Gentlemen opposite do not object when they deal with the liberty of the subject, but they are the first to object when they deal with the liberty of capital. Yet the principle is exactly the same. The liberties of persons should be definitely secured in legislation, and if legislation does not completely and definitely say what the rights of authorities are this House ought to look with the greatest jealousy on interferences such as are here suggested. It is for that reason that we oppose and shall continue to oppose such a Regulation as this. If there were any Conservatives on the other side of the House—I do not believe that there are—they would agree with us in this protest against this needless and reckless destruction of the Constitution.

Mr. PALING: I beg to second the Amendment.
The Home Secretary seems to have changed his ground somewhat to-day. On previous occasions he has argued in favour of these Regulations on the ground that there has been comparative peace throughout the country, and that that was due to the Regulations being in operation. He told us that the Regulations had prevented trouble. To-day he argues that we should have the Regulations continued because a greater number of cases of disturbance have occurred during the past month than during any previous month. I am interested, however, in bringing to the notice of the House what has occurred in my own constituency. No doubt the Home Secretary will have received a letter from the Urban District Council of Adwich-le-Street, in whose area a baton charge by the police took place. The letter reads:
A meeting of the Urban District Council of Adwich-le-Street was held at the Council Offices on Tuesday, the 21st day of September, 1926.
There followed a list of those who were present and a record of the passing of the following resolution:
Mining Dispute. It was resolved that. this Council strongly protest against the action of the police in batoning innocent men, women, and children in a most callous and cowardly way at Carcroft on the evening of Wednesday, the 15th instant, and that copies of this resolution he forwarded to the Home Secretary, the Chairman of the Standing Joint Committee, and the Member of Parliament for the Division. The resolution was supported by all the members present with the exception of one who voted against it.
I do not quote the names because I do not think they are necessary. For some time past, at the pit mentioned, there has been a difference of opinion as to whether safety men should be allowed. This question has caused some heat among the various factions. Some were in favour and some against. I believe that the colliery company could have avoided all the issue if, when they got consent for the safety men to work, they had used the power judicially. They did not do so, and the result was that the men were withdrawn and a certain amount of temper was created. The police, who have such an idea of their duties, and seem so anxious to carry them out as regards working men, would
create a better impression if they were as anxious to carry out their duties with the managers and the people who may have been responsible by their injudicious statements for creating heat and temper amongst the working-class people. I leave the matter at that.
This trouble occurred a week last Wednesday night. Several hundred men and women were congregated before the pit gate. They did not get off the main road, for the pit gates are on the main road. Certain blacklegs were at work. The meeting passed part of its time by singing the "Red Flag," and a certain amount of booing was indulged in when some of the men came from work. I grant that, after the Home Secretary's statement last month that in his opinion booing was unlawful, and after the people had been warned, they ought not to have booed. But they did boo. I suppose that that will be counted an offence against them. These were the only two things that could be levelled against them. Police were brought from Doncaster. It was stated by one of them that two minutes would be allowed for the meeting to disperse and that then a charge would he made. All the evidence that I have been able to collect seems to suggest that although the intimation was given that a charge would be made in two minutes, the two minutes were not allowed, but the charge was made almost immediately after the intimation, and as a result many men and boys suffered grievous bodily injury.
I know the people down there. I have been brought up among them, and I worked for years amongst them as an organiser and a man in the pit. I know that there is not a better body of law-abiding citizens in any neighbourhood in this country, and I am convinced that if the police, or the man in charge of them, had gone to that meeting and had stated simply that the people were meeting unlawfully and would have to disperse in two or three minutes, every man, woman and boy in the crowd would have gone home peacefully and there would not have been the slightest trouble. But these Regulations give the police a licence. Here are some of the cases of injury. The police were not content with batoning men. I have here details of two cases of boys, 16 years of age, who Suffered as a result of this charge. I
have been down to the district and personally investigated the cases. I saw one boy. He does not work at the pit at all. He was going home at the time of the charge. I believe he had been to the picture palace. He was struck twice on the back of the head, knocked down, and left unconscious on the road, until another man picked him up and got him home. I went to see him two days afterwards and he then bore the marks of the batoning upon his body very plainly. When he was knocked down he fell in the roadway on his face. He had a huge scar over his eyes and on his nose and down the whole of his cheekbone where the flesh had been scraped off when he came in contact with the road.
5.0 P.M.
Another ease is that of a boy, 16½ years of age, who was batoned on the shoulders and arms, and bore the marks of it in the shape of a huge black bruise. Another case is that of a young man whom I have known personally for 12 years. He is a man of the most pacific disposition, who was going home with a child, nine weeks of age, in his arms. He was batoned by the police and he carries; the marks. He was hit over the eye and in the wound several stitches had to be inserted. I have a mass of evidence here from various individuals who suffered. Here is the evidence of a man who lived near the scene of the charge. He says:
On Wednesday night, 15th September, about half-past ten, my daughter and myself were surprised by a rush of people, men and women, bursting into the back yard in an awful state of excitement. I went to the door and invited them all to come into the house, and then went to the back yard door to look outside. Here I was met by six policemen. I was never outside my own back yard, but one of the policemen ordered me to go inside. I said, I am all right, I live here,' and he said, 'Go inside and don't look outside,' and he pushed me across my back yard, through the kitchen door, and banged the door to. The language he used was as bad as ever was used at Billings-gate. My next door neighbour was bludgeoned while standing at his back door, the bludgeon being broken over him. The cries of men and women were agonising outside for some time, and I had some people here till after midnight, frightened to go home. This is a true statement, and I can substantiate it by a lot more witnesses if needed.
The secretary of the local branch of the Miners' Union says:
The worst case that I know of was that of the old gentleman, Mr. Raybold, who
was having a casual walk with his sons. They knew nothing of the events, the old man is almost blind and is over 65 year old, and this poor fellow was struck several times by the police.
I have a mass of 10 other cases almost similar, varying from these of men 25 to those of men of 70. I saw a good many of these men at the meeting I went down to. There is no question of the fact that they were batoned. Some of them pulled their coats and shirts off to show me what had happened. I saw one who was a mass of bruises up to the shoulders.
I suggest, to the Home Secretary that this is not the best method of carrying out these Regulations, and that if he knew of the kind of people who had suffered he would not refuse the request which I shall make to him to day, that an inquiry shall be made into this business. I know he will have the report of the whole proceedings from the police, and that it will probably differ from the account of the facts as I have stated them. I may be accused of being biased on the side of the men. It is natural that we should all have some bias. The statement of the police will be equally biased, so that the best way of getting to the truth of the is whole business is to have an inquiry into it. I will guarantee that those people, whose evidence is written out here, will be brought before the inquiry. Is it in order, for instance, for a imbue inspector to say, when certain people visited him, "If I had been down there, you would not be at liberty now." Is that within their duties? Is it within the province of a policeman or of an inspector to go to the house of a Communist and tell him he will probably get arrested, and try to get him to make a statement?
The Home Secretary is an intensely religious man. I remember reading a speech made by him at the Albert Hall, in which he criticised Members of the House of Commons and the Bishops for not being on the platform with him to issue a clarion call. He would be the first man then to disagree with bad language on the part of the police. In nearly every case I have investigated these people have complained of the bad and filthy language used by the police when this baton charge took place. I suggest that that is not proper. It may be that in the course of their duties they lose their heads somewhat, but they
should control their tongues better than they have done. The Home Secretary ought to inquire into this matter. I should also like him to inquire as to whether the windows of a man who lives near the pit gates were all broken by the police on that night. The evidence that can be laid before him from scores of men and women who were in that crowd, and from those who suffered from the batoning, warrants an inquiry into the whole business, and the Home Secretary should grant my request. He need not take my evidence, but I ask him equally not to accept the evidence of the police as the last word in accuracy. I ask him to hold a judicial inquiry into the facts. Such an inquiry would tend to placate the feelings of the people down there and to make them think that these Regulations are not always being used against them and for the benefit of the owners, but that in spite of these Regulations there is some justice still left in his country.

Sir HENRY CRAIK: I have listened with great attention to all the Debates upon this question, which have, curiously enough, faithfully repeated themselves on each occasion, but there was no greater instance of absolute fidelity of repetition than in the speech which was delivered a. few minutes ago by the late Solicitor-General, who, having brought his charges and made his appeals, did not think it worth while to wait to see the result of those appeals and charges. I listened also to the speech of the late Prime Minister, and he, with equal fidelity, rested his chief charge against these Regulations upon exactly the point which was reiterated and insisted upon by the late Solicitor-General, namely, that all these matters might equally be dealt with by the common law. He quoted, with great triumph, certain words used by the Home Secretary in quiet, calm, considered language, language which was proper to be used by any Member of the House. Of course, we are all equally jealous of the liberties of our fellow-subjects, and it is absurd to think that we rashly subscribe to these Emergency Regulations from the simple love of placing a new instrument of tyranny in the hands of the Government. But the late Solicitor-General thought he would make a tremendously impres-
sive charge against the Home Secretary when he accused him of rank inconsistency for having uttered these cautions when it was his place to act as a critic of the Government of the day. We are all equally jealous of any infringement of the liberties of the subject, but the late Prime Minister waxed quite eloquent on the subject of the infinite wrong that was done by introducing these new Emergency Regulations instead of doing all that one had to do by the common law. He said that these alleged offences could be equally well brought within the range of the common law. It was a sort of invitation to the prosecutors to try if, by some ingenuity, they could find something in the common law which would enable them to convict.
Nothing more fundamentally and permanently dangerous could be imagined than to suggest that the Common Law should be twisted, perverted and exaggerated in order to catch these offences. Surely we are preserving the law much more by making these times of distress and disorder the subject of specific Emergency Regulation and by not attempting to deal with them by the ordinary Common Law. We have just listened to a long list of alleged errors in justices, cruelties and outrages from the hon. Member. The hon. Member knows perfectly well that we can call an equal number of witnesses to give an exactly opposite account to that which he has given. This is not the place to hold an inquiry. The Home Secretary can hold an inquiry if he thinks it proper, but to attempt to constitute this House, on the evidence of one single witness, into a court of inquiry and to attempt thus to dispose of the charges made against the guardians of the law, only shows how dangerous this state of emergency is. I do not wish to keep the House long, for I have listened long to these Debates and have never intervened in one before, but I do again urge that nothing could be more misleading than the chief argument urged by the late Prime Minister and by the late Solicitor-General, neither of whom has taken the trouble to be present to listen to any argument that may be used against their speeches. Nothing could be more dangerous than, instead of resorting to Emergency Regulations in order to meet an emergency state of disorder, to try and strain the Common Law
beyond its limits and then to leave that strain on the Common Law as a permanent strain upon the future.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. James Hope): I ought to remind the right hon. Gentleman that the Amendment has been put, and that speeches must be confined to that particular Question.

Sir H. CRAIK: It was in moving the Amendment that the late Solicitor-General especially insisted on this point. I thought it my duty to show that it was a fallacy of the worst type, and a danger to the future of England.

Mr. HARNEY: I do not think the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken really does justice to the arguments to which I listened of the late Solicitor-General. I do not desire to say much on these Regulations, but the Home Secretary will agree that Regulations 21 and 22 enable very special provisions of law to be put into operation, and that all such matters as the ordinary offences of doing acts likely to cause sedition, of publishing matter which is of the same character, and of holding public meetings with a view to sedition, are covered now by the ordinary law. It is true that to bring this ordinary law into play is, at the moment, cumbersome. It is also true that under it there is the security offered to the delinquent of having a jury. I quite understand that in a state of emergency it may be advisable to give more summary powers, but surely there must be a case of real emergency to justify such action. You cannot claim that at your own sweet will, you can put into force Regulations which have the effect of wiping away the ordinary protection which a jury and the necessity for an indictment give to the offender.
We have to ask ourselves: Is there really at this moment such justification as was contemplated by the Act, for putting in force these two Regulations? What was the justification contemplated? It was that there should appear to His Majesty, which of course means to His Majesty's advisers—to put it shortly, that it should appear to the Home Secretary—that action was immediately threatened which was calculated to interfere with the supply and distribution of food. The right hon. Gentleman has to be satisfied himself that action is now impending and
is now threatened which tends to interfere with the distribution of food. Is there any such justification at the Moment? This is the sixth time that the Proclamation has been put in force. I do not suppose the right hon. Gentleman would say that as long as the dispute lasts we ought, automatically, to continue the Regulations. That would be contrary to the Act. You have to show in reference to each proclamation that at that particular time there exists a state of danger of the distribution of food being interfered with. Is there any such danger now? What evidence has been brought forward to show that on a real, extended scale the distribution of food is threatened? I know of none.. One reads the papers day by day and sees a little case here and another there, such as exist in ordinary times. But can any fairminded person say that at this moment there is a general threat among the disaffected in the community to interfere with the distribution of food? If there is not, then, unquestionably, this is undue and improper interference with the liberty of the subject and takes away, in reference to offences already covered by the law, the protection which is offered by having a jury and having an indictment. Therefore, I ask the right hon. Gentleman to withdraw these two Regulations as unnecessary.

Mr. MACQUISTEN: I have listened with considerable interest to this discussion and to several of those which have preceded it, on the same subject, and I think the right hon. Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir H. Craik) hardly did full justice to the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for South-East Leeds (Sir H. Slesser). The right hon. and learned Gentleman spun an even larger net of legal cobwebs for the entertainment of the legal Members of this House—because I feel sure that the majority of the lay Members of the House were not particularly interested—than he did on the last occasion. The hon. and learned Gentleman made a great song about the fact that a man under Regulations 21 and 22 does not get a trial by jury. Of course he does not for the offence of sedition, and he should be very thankful. If he were to be indicted and tried by a jury he would probably get penal servitude
instead of three months—indeed, I am not sure that the penalty, in some cases, is not death. Apparently, the Regulations are not severe enough for the hon. and learned Gentleman, who wants something far more drastic.
With regard to the statement that the common law adequate for these offences, he threw doubt and derision upon the points which I have put on former occasions but I may say, with all respect to him as an ex-Solicitor-General, that I think he is misleading the House. Everybody knows that if the 1906 Trade Disputes Act had not been passed, these Regulations would never have been necessary. Never, on this side of Jordan, would they have been needed if the trade unions, instead of being put up above the law, has been made liable for torts and faults. It is because they have been into the position which the priesthood occupied prior to the Reformation that they are not so responsible under the ordinary law of the land and that these Regulations are necessary so as to get at the individual members more efficiently than they could be got at under the ordinary law. If the trade unions and their funds were liable then trade unionists would be kept in order by them instead of being incited to breaches of the law.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. and learned Member is now embarking on the discussion of a rather wide question and one which is same way off these particular Regulations.

Mr. MACQUISTEN: I was dealing particularly with Regulations 21 and 22, and I was replying to what I might almost describe as the provocation of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for South-East Leeds. The point taken against these Regulations by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn) was that they endow the Home Secretary with powers which he will never use. There are many powers which are never used. That only goes to show the sanity of the ordinary administration of the ordinary policemen. You may give all kinds of powers in this country to various authorities, but they are never exercised to the maximum. They are used with discretion by those who have the duty of administering them.
We have heard an hon. Member in the course of this discussion refer to some cases of disturbances with the police which came under Regulation 22. I say that there is an alteration in the law in Regulation 22—and in that respect I differ from the ex-Solicitor-General—because this Regulation covers a procession which may lead to a breach of the peace. Everybody knows of the processions which take place and which are intended to be a form of peaceful picketing. Some of these are huge processions, but according to the 1906 Act any n amber can picket, and as long as the picketing is peaceful and orderly there is to be no legal objection. It is obvious, however, that if a gigantic procession goes to a particular pit with the intention of peaceful persuasion, that will almost certainly conduce to a breach of the peace or cause under demand to be made on the, police under the Regulation. A large body of police will have to accompany them. We have seen again and again what has happened in various strikes as a result of the 1906 Act. Poor young lads are incited to go out on what they believe to be a legal picket—a picket of such enormous numbers that it is certain to lead to a breach of the peace. Then we have cases of the kind to which an hon. Member on the other side has recently referred, where young lads are badly hammered. They are led into this trap by the unfortunate state of the law.
If hon. Members opposite would be content to put their institutions on the same. level as the associations of other citizens, then these Regulations would never be required. For my part, I do not welcome these Regulations. The statement is made that they are being passed by the Government in the interest of the owners because the Government are on the side of the owners. There is no foundation for that statement. What has the Government allowed to be done? The miners all along have had an enormous sum of public money given for the relief of themselves and their dependents while they were striking and saying to the community, "We will deprive you of coal." If the mineowners had been paid by the boards of guardians proportionate sums in lieu of profits, at the same time
as the miners were taking money in lieu of wages, then it might be said there was some equality—

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I hope the hon. and learned Member will confine his argument to these particular Regulations.

Mr. MACQUISTEN: A previous speaker said that the Regulations were being passed in the interest of the mineowners and I was controverting that statement.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I ought to point out that when a hon. Member is moving an Amendment to a Motion of this kind he is still speaking to the main question, but once the Amendment is proposed from the Chair the discussion has to he confined to the Amendment.

Mr. MACQUISTEN: I may say, Sir, that, I think is a new point of Order to most Members of the House. I was always under the misapprehension that when a Member made a speech, another Member was entitled to reply on the particular points which had been raised. However, I submit that these Regulations—which nobody dislikes more than myself—are necessary in this particular crisis. There is no doubt whatever that, as the law at present stands, when you have bodies like, the Miners' Federation, with which it seems impossible to make any settlement, something of this kind is required which will give the ordinary workman liberty and the right to work and the assurance that he will not be interfered with, possibly by a tyrannical minority of the workers themselves. Something of this kind is necessary to protect the liberty of the subject. Nothing could be more preposterous than the speeches to-day of hon. Members of the Labour party and the hon. and gallant Member for Leith and others who have been responsible for weaving this web which trammels the ordinary working man to-day and prevents him having the liberty to work, or to employ himself as he wishes. For them to pose as defenders of liberty while they are opposing these two Regulations which are meant to secure economic liberty is wholly inconsistent and illogical. The biggest enemies of the liberties of the working classes sit on the benches opposite.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: I gather that the hon. and learned Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten), who dislikes these Regulations intensely, is going to vote for them. I dislike them intensely, and am going to vote against them.

Mr. MACQUISTEN: We might pair.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: I would not like to pair with the hon. and learned Gentleman until I have made quite clear to him my reasons for taking, in the Division Lobby, a different view from himself on this question. This Debate, although it is the sixth Debate on the same subject, has been a very useful one and not the least useful contributions have been the speeches of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and my hon. and learned Friend the ex-Solicitor-General. I think it just as well that the Labour party should make it quite clear that, whether they are in opposition or in power, they look upon Regulations 21 and 22 as not being wanted in an emergency in this country. There can be no justification for such a form of legislation as this. I have spoken at about 40 meetings during this dispute and I take it that all the speakers at those meetings except myself have rendered themselves liable to arrest under Regulation 21. All, with the exception of myself, sought to excite disaffection against His Majesty's present Government. I, have been very careful always to say that the right hon. Gentleman, His Majesty's principal Secretary of State for Home Affairs is doing his best; that he is, of course, a strong man and that his impartial attitude towards this dispute cannot be questioned. I have even included the Prime Minister in that exordium. But even I, have, I believe, caused disaffection towards the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because I have expressed the view that when the right hon. Gentleman was turned down by the rest of the Cabinet he ought to have resigned. The fact of the matter is that these Regulations are so widely framed that everybody who has taken a side in this dispute, whether with the men or with the masters, could be brought within Regulations 21 and 22.
That is what I object to in this form of legislation. There is an infinite number of potential criminals who have
tried to restrict the supply of fuel, and the police are left free to select which one they want. That is not a form of justice which will ever appeal to the English people. Here you have a general decree throwing outside the law everyone who is trying to restrict the supply of fuel of the country, and you leave it to the police to use their unaided intelligence as to whom they shall proceed against before a bench of magistrates, who are as partial as any other person taking part in the dispute. That is bad politics and bad morality. It reminds one of the decree issued, I think, by Philip II of Spain when he sentenced everybody in the Netherlands to death. He could not put it into operation, but he left it in the hands of Alva to arrest and burn anybody he liked. Here the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary outlaws many of the population and leaves it to the police to select their victims as they choose. I think the police have been extremely moderate, but I am afraid the figures given by the Home Secretary to-day show that the powers given under these Regulations are getting better known to the police—l'apétit vient en mangeant. They find it so easy to run in anybody who is inconvenient, and therefore the increase of crimes under Regulation 21 may not be due to increased criminality, but to an increased familiarity of the police with the powers they possess.
I am all for law and order, but let us know exactly what the law is, so that a man may know when he is going to cross the line. The danger of this sort of legislation is that so many people, knowing themselves to be within the net, may say, "Well, I may as well be hanged for a man as for a sheep," and they go further than they would otherwise go. I urge hon. Members opposite to use their influence to suppress this particular form of legislation. It can only do harm to the attitude of citizens generally towards the law. There is also the other reason which I have already referred to. The real value of this Debate has been to make quite clear to the House and to the country the attitude of the Labour party towards this form of legislation. We nearly had to introduce something like these Regulations when we were in office, but Regulation 21 was never embodied in
any emergency powers brought before this House by the Labour Government, and I hope it never will be.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: May I ask whether the right hon. and gallant Member is now giving to the House a statement as to what was in the Emergency Regulations proposed by the Labour Government? I have been very particular in making no statement as to those Regulations, and I thought it is only fair that the same course should be followed on both sides of the House.

Colonel WEDGWOOD: I am saying that we never introduced this particular form of legislation in any Regulations we brought forward. I do not propose to say what Regulations we should introduce if we had to do so. But we did not introduce Regulation 21 or Regulation 22, or advance any arguments in their favour. Now we have had a statement from the Leader of the Opposition and from the ex-Solicitor-General making quite clear their hostility to this form of legislation, and in spite of the temptation there may be to use this particular kind of legislation, not against the workers, but against the masters, I trust that their opposition will remain to any form of legislation which can be used in this particular way, incriminating a large number of people and leaving it to the Executive to decide which particular persons are to be proceeded against. If we are to have this sort of legislation, let us have it in black and white so that the House can go through it in detail. Let us know where we are; let the potential criminals know where they are; but do not leave the use of this power in the hands of the executive police forces which will be out of the control of this House, and may act in a manner which everyone would deplore. I do not think this Regulation has been of any assistance to the Government. It has created in the minds of the workers themselves a feeling of absolute hopelessness as to what the law is. Over and over again I have been asked whether something is or is not illegal. You cannot tell them. Everything is illegal under this Regulation. It would be much better if people knew where they were, if they had a Statute saying exactly what they are entitled to do and what they are not to do. At the moment they are in a com-
plete haze as to what the law is or how any bench of magistrates will interpret the law, and you get a state of exasperation which is deplorable and which does not lead to peace in the country.

Mr. STORRY DEANS: I do not desire to take up much time of the House in considering these Regulations, but it is important, as we are passing Emergency Regulations, which are a departure from the common law of the land, that the House should fully consider them. Therefore, I make no apology for intervening in the Debate. I am as jealous as the ex-Solicitor-General for the Common Law of this country; it is the citadel of our liberty. But no one sitting on the benches opposite can deny that a strike of great magnitude is an emergency—[An HON. MEMBER: "It is not a strike."] I beg the hon. Member's pardon. Let me say that an industrial dispute of great magnitude, which causes feelings to run high, is such a situation that certain powers must be given to the Executive. It is, of course, open to the hon. Member to say that there is no emergency; that a strike or lock-out, or industrial dispute, does not create such a state of emergency. But hon. Members opposite cannot say that, because the hon. and gallant Member who has just sat down has said that the Labour Government proposed to enact, and would have enacted, Emergency Regulations on the occasion of a trade dispute during their short tenure of office. If a state of emergency exists when it is the case of a transport dispute, how can hon. Members opposite say that a state of emergency does not exist when it is the case of a dispute which goes so nearly to the life of the country as the present coal dispute?

Sir H. SLESSER: My suggestion is that, though a state of emergency may require Regulations dealing with the supply and distribution of food and fuel, it does not require Regulations interfering with the liberty of the subject.

Mr. DEANS: It is quite clear that when you have one of these gigantic disputes, when tempers rise and there is a great deal of hot blood, ordinary and respectable people do things which ordinary and respectable people would not do in ordinary times; and what is the good of shutting our eyes to that
fact? I do not care whose fault it is, I will give hon. Members opposite the case that it is entirely the masters' fault. Suppose it is. It is still the duty of the Government to maintain law and order in this country. I do not propose to follow the hon. and learned Member on the subject of Fox's Libel Act, but let me refer to the point he made about trial by jury. May I tell the House how this question strikes me as one who has had some experience of the law. It is true that you allow magistrates to deal summarily with cases of sedition whereas under the Common Law the person accused has the right of trial by jury. He elects to be tried by a jury, and in many cases has to wait some time before the trial takes place. There is delay. He has to wait the coming of the Judge for assizes. Under this Regulation you get a speedier trial, and I do not see why that should be a disadvantage to the person accused. I have often heard people declaim against the verdict given by a jury. I have heard them declaim against the decision given by a bench of magistrates, and even against the decision of a Judge. Judges are not infallible. I have often had occasion to try and convince three Judges that one Judge was not infallible, and occasionally I have had to make visits to another place in order to find out whether four Judges who have previously decided a case have decided it properly. When you have these kinds of offences committed in hot blood, not sedition in the ordinary old sense of sedition—a considered writing against the Government of the Crown—but offences which are of a seditious nature and can only be described as sedition under our legal phraseology, causing disaffection which is intended to bring about a stoppage in the essential services of the country, you have a kind of minor sedition which is not in the least contemplated by the common law of sedition.
In such cases it is right and proper that the offence should be dealt with by the quickest tribunal you can find, with strictly limited power of punishment, and, let me add, with a right of appeal. Anyone convicted under these Regulations has the right of appeal to a higher Court, and I suggest that that is an answer to my hon. and learned Friend's complaint as to the abolition of trial by
jury. It is not the abolition of trial by jury in cases of sedition; if so, I should object to it; but it is simply that, in cases arising under these Emergency Regulations, the police authorities are not bound to put the accused to all the delay, expense, and, probably, long imprisonment before trial, without bail, which sometimes amounts to two or three months, and then a long and solemn trial before a Judge in a red robe, who, if he finds a man guilty of sedition, might give him two or three years' penal servitude. I suggest that this is rather favourable to the men who are accused of these minor offences.

Sir H. SLESSER: Does the hon. and learned Member suggest that there is a right of appeal under these Regulations where there would not he a right of appeal under the common law? Supposing a person is tried for sedition, and not imprisoned, and there would he no right of appeal under the Summary Jurisdiction Act, does the hon. and learned Member suggest that the right of appeal would exist here?

Mr. DEANS: No, but if a man were fined such an inconsiderable sum as would deprive him of the right of appeal, surely there is no very serious grievance.

Sir H. SLESSER: When my hon. and learned Friend said there was a right of appeal in every case of sedition, that was not correct. If there is no right of appeal under the Summary Jurisdiction Act, there is no right of appeal for sedition under these Regulations.

Mr. DEANS: I quite agree, and I accept the correction. In trifling eases, where some small fine is imposed as a punishment, there is no right of appeal, but in all cases where the liberty of the subject is involved, in all cases of imprisonment—that is the point—there is a right of appeal. It seems to me that these Regulations serve this useful purpose—Regulations 21 and 22 among others—that they are a deterrent, as the right hon. Gentleman said. I do not think that when people contemplate a doubtful act and say: "I wonder if it is within the four corners of the law"—

Mr. MONTAGUE: Let us have the Spanish Inquisition then!

Mr. DEANS: The hon. Member can go to Russia if he likes, and then he will have the Russian Inquisition. Let him go to Russia, and then he will satisfy all his ambitions for inquisitorial methods. The preventive quality of these Regulations is undoubtedly to my mind their most useful characteristic. Can anybody—can hon. Members, some of whom are themselves, I believe, strike leaders—doubt that the very presence of these Regulations upon our Statute Book has prevented many outbreaks of crime?

Mr. GRUNDY: It has incited to crime.

Mr. HARNEY: Does the hon. and learned Member say that the mere existence of a strike justifies these Regulations, or that a mere strike is equivalent to this, that there is immediately threatened action calculated to interfere with the supply and distribution of food?

Mr. DEANS: It entirely depends upon the magnitude of the strike. If the profession of which my hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney) is an ornament, and of which I am a member, were on strike, that would not create a state of emergency. But when the whole of the coal miners go on strike, it does create an emergency, and it has been decided by this House many times over that a state of emergency does exist. I suggest that, in these circumstances, it is far better to have Regulations like this, which can be held up as a warning to those who might break the peaceߞ—

Mr. GRUNDY: Terrorise!

Mr. DEANS: Yes, if you like. The terror of them is far better than having another Featherstone case.

Mr. GRUNDY: The hon. and learned Member then admits that the Emergency Regulations are to terrorise?

Mr. DEANS: I do not want to enter into too keen a controversy with my hon. Friend, but I would suggest to him that there are times when terror, or fright, if you like, is a very useful thing. We have escaped the use of the military in all this long-continued strike. We have had no shooting—God forbid that we should have any shooting—and I suggest that, by passing these Regulations as they
stand, we shall be doing a great service, not only to the general public, but to the miners and their dependants themselves.

Mr. SAKLATVALA: I support the Amendment to omit Regulations 21 and 22. My reason for doing so is not only one of general principle, but even of the actual manner in which, up to now, these two Regulations have been made use of to serve ulterior motives and for purposes other than those ostensibly stated in the Regulations. I do not suggest that a gross abuse of these Regulations has been committed through personal wickedness, but there is no doubt that it has been committed through ordinary human weakness. I think the Home Secretary, with regard to Regulation 21, has this afternoon almost confessed to the grossest abuse of it, and that it has been used for furthering the objects of the masters against the ordinary rights of the miners.
We are told that there have been only 309 cases, but I submit that, by the very nature of the Regulation, which states that if there is reason to apprehend that there will be trouble in a given section of society, and so on, any person accused is guilty. Take the position of a poor magistrate. He sits there, and a responsible police officer or Home Office official goes to him and says, "I have reason to apprehend that, although it has not created trouble, it is likely to create disorder." What has the magistrate to do? He has to take the word of that officer. There is no further proof necessary, there is no further argument needed, and the Home Secretary's confession to-day, that only 309 cases have occurred, in almost all of which only small fines were imposed, shows that the magistrates have no heart in it, but that the wording of the Regulation does not permit a magistrate to call for proofs or use his judgment. He has only to take the word of the officer who comes before him, and says, "I have reason to apprehend that, although nothing has happened, serious disorder might come out in some section of society," and the magistrate says, "Very well, if that is your reason, I will fine this poor fellow and warn him not to do it again." The result is that this Regulation is used for the purpose of spreading terrorism among the miners, and the Home Secretary confessed to-day that
this Regulation during the past month has been used for the sole and exclusive purpose of spreading terrorism among the innocent miners, to push them to work in those counties where the masters are pretty successfully pushing them.
The right hon. Gentleman says that actually the cases have risen in number. What has risen in number? It is not the guilt of the persons, but wherever the masters have been active and fairly successful, what have risen in number are the cases in which the police also have set themselves actively to terrorise over the miners. That is the sole use made of this Regulation, according to the Home Secretary's confession that all throughout the last month the authorities have kept their eyes wide awake, under orders from the coalowners, and wherever the coalowners have been able to pitchfork the men into work, this Regulation has been most actively used. That is ample proof that, in the main, it is an abuse of the legal power of the authorities rather than an instrument for the protection of society.
If the Home Secretary will pardon me, and the Deputy-Speaker will not mind, I will point out an earlier case that has reference to an argument used by the Home Secretary to-day. I know of a very high Government official getting into trouble, and rightly so. I am talking from memory again, but about the year 1899 or 1900 a high official in the Punjab Government was responsible for rendering an account of his Department. He was the head of the Public Health Department, and he wanted to go away on a holiday rather prematurely, so he left a note to his assistant, as follows: "Wait for the health figures of such and such a dispensary, and then frame a report in my name. If the number of patients is less than last year, put down as my report that it is owing to the good work done by the dispensary. If the figures are higher than last year, then put forward as my report that it is owing to the growing popularity of the dispensary." The poor innocent clerk published the whole of the note as it stood.
6.0 P.M.
There was serious trouble for the junior officer who tried to use this argument. The Home Secretary to-day has presented to the House exactly the same line of argument. Last time he said,
Regulation 21 is very important, for its very existence terrorises people and prevents them from spreading disorder. To-day he says that the last time he told us its existence was very important, and because it has existed the disorders have taken place, and they have been running after them. It is a line of argument which cuts both ways. I submit that the miners are convinced that during the past month the use made of these Regulations has been to increase the terrorism of the miners in those districts in which the coalowners are interested in pushing the men to work.
With regard to Regulation 22, if the Home Secretary to-day submits as an argument in support of the Regulation that there were 309 cases in a month, and on a previous occasion there was one occurrence when the Regulation had to be used, then Regulation 22 is really not required for any national good. But I would again submit, that on the two occasions when I was involved in the exercise of Regulation 22, if not from political wickedness, at least in spite of the right hon. Gentleman being the strong man in the Cabinet, he made a wrong political use of this Regulation pure and simple. The Home Secretary referred to a procession being stopped when I was billed to speak. I submit I was billed to speak and the advertisement was out, as I pointed out on a previous occasion when this Regulation was used against me, about a week or ten days before the Regulation was put into motion. The meeting was advertised at the end of August for the 8th September, and it was to take place under the management of the South Wales Miners' Federation, and not the Communist party. On the late afternoon of the 7th previous to the day of the meeting, the local agent of the South Wales Miners' Federation at Bridgend was informed verbally by the Superintendent that the next day's meeting would be cancelled, and notices were being printed. The agent pointed out that there were possibilities of organising two or three meetings. The Superintendent said that the meeting at Hoelycue had to be abandoned and the processions cancelled. The miners' agent only wanted to know what would be his position if he ran a
meeting outside the prohibited area. He was informed at 5 o'clock that the local authorities did not know which were the prohibited areas, but by about midnight they would have some printed circulars or orders, and early in the morning there would be a large squad employed to post up those notices. The first part of the notice referred to the procession, but the last part to this particular meeting:
The holding of any meeting at or in the vicinity of Hoelycue on Wednesday, 8th September, 1926, is also prohibited.
One can imagine the position of a miners' agent organising a meeting and a speaker who has no desire to come into clash with the most arbitrary and despotic dictation of the authorities. What is "the vicinity of Hoelycue"? Does it reach as far as London, Bristol or even Moscow, if the Home Secretary has his way? One naturally conjectures that one town has got its vicinity in its outlying districts, and that at least when you enter another town, the vicinity of the first finishes and the next begins. That is the commonsense argument. So the miners' agent, at about 11 o'clock in the morning, again telephoned to the superintendent pointing out that they had another meeting, on which considerable expense had been incurred, at a place a few miles away from Hoelycue. He said, "I cannot tell you whether that also comes within the word 'vicinity' or not." If this is the way this thing is to be put into execution, it means that a chief constable or police officer can say, "I am going to pursue you. You can go where you like, and I can arbitrarily, at the last moment, decide that your meeting is to be broken up. You can incur expense, travel about and advertise, and I have authority to come along and say, 'This place is also covered by my circular.'" Seeing the indefiniteness of it, I wired to the Home Secretary, drawing attention to the wording of the circular prohibiting that day's meeting, and asking him to clear up the matter of the "vicinity." I also wired to the Chief Constable:
With reference to the circular, should you not define 'vinicity of Hoelycue' in actual mileage radius, if you do not desire unnecessary harassment of Labour speakers?
The Chief Constable of Glamorgan was kind enough immediately to send out somebody. I had to keep running about in order to avoid the so-called area, and
the Government agent had to go about on a motor cycle to find out where I was. At about 3.30 he discovered me about 12 miles away, because the South Wales Miners' Federation were determined to have that meeting and had it, but we had no desire to walk into the provocative trap of the constable, or to come into clash with anyone.

Mr. HARNEY: A good meeting?

Mr. SAKLATVALA: A very good meeting. The Chief Constable's deputy gave me a verbal message: "We are very sorry we have put you to so much trouble. We ought to have said how many miles radius. We give you the limit five miles from Hoelycue." We, therefore, avoided the five miles' radius. The other method adopted was this: The authorities had a notice of the particular meeting and the procession a few days before. But the police did not give us five minutes to inform the public that the meeting was cancelled. They simply rushed the people hither and thither, and sent out of the area even the chars-a-bane in which some of the people arrived. [An HON. MEMBER: "Chars-a-bane?"] Yes, the miners have as much right to sit in chars-a-bane as you have to sit in Rolls-Royces. I mention the methods employed as definite proof of the wrong motives underlying the suppression of these meetings. Ten days after the meetings were suppressed, the Home Secretary in this House wantonly charged two or three Labour Members with having gone to Hoelycue and spread an atmosphere that would lead to riot and disorder. Unfortunately, I was not in the House, but having carefully read what happened, I could see that the suggestion was resented by the hon. and gallant Member for East Rhondda (Lieut.-Colonel Watts-Morgan), who is vice-chairman of the watch committee, and who said the Home Secretary was making random suggestions and remarks. The Home Secretary first makes a false charge that some Members made speeches and created an atmosphere of danger, and then he arbitrarily acts under the Regulation, and, to prove he was right that there was reason to apprehend this disorder, mentions these 309 prosecutions. If that was the way in which Regulation 22 was used, it was a wrong way politically. I think the hon. and gallant Member for
Leith (Captain Benn) told us that one of the ambitions of the Home Secretary, as proclaimed by his own followers, is that "Jix is the lad to keep the Reds away," and if he is simply making use of that Regulation to keep up that reputation, he is making gross abuse of his position in Parliament. If he were ashamed of that not being acted upon, and felt he must do something to keep the Reds away from the meeting, it was not a proper use of his powers.
But now I am talking on a more delicate subject, and I hope the Home Secretary will be good enough to clear it up. If he exercises his rights under Regulations 21 and 22, it is not a joke but a very serious responsibility that he is undertaking. If the newspapers give a certain interpretation to his action, it becomes his duty either to allow that interpretation to remain or to take immediate action to contradict it. There was an interpretation on the 8th September given to the Home Secretary's action in regard to this. The local police and the chief constable did not say what the Home Secretary said. They did not say they "requested," but the information was that the Home Secretary sent a telegram cancelling this meeting. It was said by the hon. and gallant Member for East Rhondda that the Home Secretary was attempting to create a feeling in the minds of the people that there was danger and that it was done for their protection. Some members of the Communist party suggested to me that the Home Secretary was trying to enveigle the local leaders into it, which I discountenanced. To my surprise, when I reached the station on the night of the 8th September I saw in an evening paper—I did not buy it, but some other person had it and allowed me to read it; it was the "South Wales Express and Evening News"—a notice of the Chief Constable's action, which said that the Home Secretary had taken this action quite rightly and to the satisfaction of all the moderate and wise Labour leaders in the locality, because it had freed them from the embarrassment of having to attend a conference organised by the South Wales Miners' Federation without consultation with those wise and moderate leaders and so on. There was there a distinct inference that the Chief Constable had
acted on behalf of those very Labour Members who a week ago repudiated the statement of the Home Secretary that the Chief Constable was acting according to the necessities of the case. I would like to ask the Home Secretary to contradict that report in that newspaper, and also to instruct his constables to contradict all such reports which do by inference indicate a collusionary movement between the Chief Constable and those very Members of the Labour party who a week ago flouted the Home Secretary and repudiated what he had said. I say again that I object to Regulations 21 and 22, not only on general principles, but because I am convinced from the reports of the Home Secretary himself that in the main and on the whole he has done nothing but make a wrong political use of them in order to satisfy certain people hungry for strife.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I have listened to the Debate for some time, and I think it right for me now to say a few words on behalf of the Government in reply to the Amendment to omit Regulations 21 and 22. Hon. Members will perhaps forgive me if I do not deal with all their speeches, but I propose to deal with the speeches of the hon. Member for North Battersea (Mr. Saklatvala) and the hon. Member for the Doncaster Division (Mr. Paling) and, I need hardly say, of the hon. and learned Member for South-East Leeds (Sir H. Slesser). The first part of the speech of the hon. Member for North Battersea was, if he will forgive me for saying so—I desire to speak within the limits of courtesy—a travesty of anything I have said to-day. When he reads the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow, he will see that I never mentioned anything about using the police for purposes of terrorism. In fact, the whole of the first part of his speech bore no relation—

Mr. SAKLATVALA: I did not say that the Home Secretary said so. The Home Secretary tried to varnish the fact with words which would not say it, but the underlying confession was there.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I can only say that I do not in the slightest degree agree with the hon. Member. Nothing I said was intended to varnish the facts or to lead him or any other Member to
think I meant anything such as he has suggested with regard to the second part of his speach, dealing with the particular case where I prevented him from speaking at a meeting at Hoelycue, he is entitled to an answer. Under the Regulations I have the right and the power to prevent meetings or processions being held if, in my opinion, they are likely to cause a breach of the peace or to promote disaffection. If I am convinced of that, it is within my power either to prevent a meeting myself or to authorise the mayor, magistrate, or chief officer of police to do so. The hon. Member, if he will forgive me for saying so, rather flatters himself if he thinks I have nothing better to do than to watch where he is going to speak, and prevent him from doing so, because he hapens to be of a particular red colour. That is not the duty of the Home Secretary. There have been 18 cases in which this particular Regulation has been utilised since the beginning of the general strike on the 1st of May until now. Every one of those cases came before me as a proposal from either the chief magistrate or the chief police officer of the district. In no sense of the term was there a suggestion by the Home Secretary that any particular meeting should be stopped. In the month of September there has been only this one case—that of which the hon. Member complained. As I say, I knew nothing about his movements, nor was it necessary that I should; but the Chief Constable of Glamorgan, who is the chief police officer of that area, received information that there was to be not only a meeting but a huge procession to concentrate upon Hoelycue, where a number of collieries were beginning to work, with a view to stopping that resumption of work. That was the information which the Chief Constable had received, and he wrote to me and said that in his view, as the responsible police officer for the County of Glamorgan, if this procession and this meeting were held, they were likely to lead to a breach of the peace. It is the duty of the police to prevent breaches of the peace. It is the duty of the Secretary of State not to encourage breaches of the peace, not to encourage baton charges, or anything of the kind, but to prevent the possibility of such an occurrence if it can be done.
When I got that statement from the Chief Constable—without my having had any personal knowledge of the movements of the hon. Member—it would have been almost impossible for me in view of the Regulations—passed with the authority of Parliament which put upon the Home Secretary the obligation of carrying them out—to say to the Chief of the Police "I do not think the hon. Member for Battersea is likely to hurt a fly. I do not think he is likely to make a speech which will do any harm to anybody. He will only blow off a little steam. I think you had better let him hold the meeting." The answer of the Chief Constable might have been "You may know the hon. Member for Battersea, but you do not know South Wales. I am responsible, as Chief of the Police, for telling you quite definitely that this great procession, coupled with a meeting, would be likely to endanger the peace at Hoelycue and the vicinity." Therefore, I authorised the order prohibiting not merely the speech of the hon. Member—that is only a secondary matter—but prohibiting this great procession, and, as the hon. Member says, he went away and made his speech elsewhere. Sometimes I do myself the privilege of reading the hon. Member's speeches. I read one the other day which was of great personal interest to myself because of the abuse which he showered upon me—a speech made in London a few weeks ago when he went so far as to say that whatever the Home Secretary might do, he was going to speak as and where he liked. Well, he did not speak at Hoelycue, at all events. I do not object to his speaking where it will do no harm, and, as he has said, he went off some few miles from the danger area, where there was no procession, and made the speech; and he has told us just now, in reply to the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney), that it was a good meeting, and I hope that, from his point of view, it was a good speech. At all events, no harm has come from it, and nobody has been put into prison or got into trouble through having been stirred by the hon. Member's eloquence to do something wrong. That is the end of the matter, and it is hardly worth while to have brought it to the notice of the House of Commons.
The hon. Member for the Doncaster Division raised a much more important case. He said that the action of the police—not necessarily under the Emergency Regulations at all—in a baton charge at the Bullcroft Colliery near Doncaster was very gross indeed. He told us there were a certain number of men, some boys and an old man, who were very grievously hurt in that baton charge. He ought to have told us that the baton charge was utterly unjustified. There would have been a point in that, because, of course, where a baton charge takes place, assuming it to be justified—where there as a conflict between 25 police and 2,000 rioters—

Mr. PALING: Two thousand?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: That is my information. Where a baton charge takes place a certain number of people are bound to be hurt. I am not disputing that. I will accept the statement of the hon. Member that some boys, an old man and various other men were hurt in that charge. You cannot make a baton charge without people being hurt. The only question for the consideration of the Secretary of State and the House of Commons is whether the baton charge was justified, or whether, in the case of a justified charge, the police used greater force than was proper to meet the needs of the case. The hon. Member has not given me a single word suggesting that the baton charge was unjustified in the circumstances of the case.

Mr. MARCH: When you do get a case, you do not take any notice of it.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: That is not at all a fair statement.

Mr. MARCH: We told you of a case in London.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The hon. Member is going back to a case which occurred in his own district some months ago. I saw him then, and I read a great deal of information which was put before me. To say I took no notice of it is, if he will forgive me, not quite in accordance with Parliamentary tactics. I did take considerable notice of it, and I have given my decision in regard to that case.

Mr. MARCH: The same decision you gave—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Let me tell the House the facts in regard to the Bullcroft Colliery. It is an important matter. There is a colliery which has employed a great many hundreds of men. What are known as gob fires broke out under ground, and a large number of men were required to deal with the danger. Some 40 officials were obtained from the neighbouring collieries, and the local miners' lodge was approached with a view to allowing some of their workmen to assist in putting out those very serious fires. Permission had been granted for 12 men, but it was withdrawn, and the colliery proprietors had to do their best to deal with these very serious fires under ground. The miners' lodge in the district would allow no further men to go down.

Mr. PALING: Was it stated why the 12 men were withdrawn?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Because of some dispute between the miners' lodge and the colliery in respect—

Mr. PALING: No, there was no dispute at all. Herbert Smith went down to the colliery and held a meeting of the men, and got the men to agree to certain safety men going down. Mr. Smith, along with local officials, had been down the pit and made an examination of the points of danger, and had come to an agreement with the colliery management that 12 men were necessary on each shift. These men were sent down. On the very first inspection that the local secretary made as to whether those men were carrying out the agreement, it was found that the men had been sent to other points absolutely different from those provided for in the agreement which had been reached with Herbert Smith. The local secretary came to the conclusion that the management had flung the whole thing in his face, and had treated the agreement with contempt, and the branch fetched the men out.

Mr. WOMERSLEY: This is a free country.

Mr. PALING: The men said the management had absolutely refused to
honour the agreement, and, that being so, they had no redress but to withdraw the men.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I really do not mind very much which view is taken. Here is the fact that the pit was on fire. Here is the fact that ordinarily hundreds of men would be employed in working in that particular pit. As a result of the action taken 1,200 yards of the working face have been sealed up. I may as well conclude the story now. That fire has gone on, and for all time—for all time—in consequence of the action taken in refusing to assist in the fire being put out, there will be 500 miners fewer employed in that colliery. [Interruption.]

Mr. PALING: That statement is absolutely untrue.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member has raised this particular case, and he must be content to hear the answer, although he may not agree with it.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The information I am giving is taken from the report of the responsible official, and it states definitely that there will be 500 men gut of employment as a consequence of this action, even when the stoppage is over.

Mr. GRUNDY rose—

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member must not remain in the House if he cannot refrain from interrupting.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The colliery people are doing their best to protect the men who are at work. In this case, on the 15th September the police superintendent had information that there was likely to be a determined effort made to attack these men when they were leaving work changing their shift. They were due to leave at 9.20 in the evening. It has been stated by the hon. Member that the crowd was not 2,000, but my information is that upwards of 2,000 assembled there; they were waiting for the safety men coming off the first shift, and the police did their best to deal with the crowd. The superintendent of the police himself went among the crowd and tried to persuade the men to go home and not to make any attack on the safety men. According to the report I received, the
crowd were in a dangerous mood and were anxious to prevent the safety men going in to take the places of those who were coming out. The superintendent did his best to get the crowd to disperse, but his efforts were unavailing, and he was responsible for the safety of these men. The police and myself are responsible in such cases whether you call the men blacklegs or anything else, and that was our responsibility to see that these men were not set upon by a crowd of 2,000 men. The superintendent was there in charge, and he did his best to persuade the crowd to go away, but they were in an angry condition and would not go away, and the superintendent was afraid that serious damage would be done to the property and afraid for the safety men coming out of the mine. Under these circumstances, the superintendent said that he made up his mind that it was necessary to disperse the crowd for the safety of these men, and therefore he ordered a baton charge.

Mr. PALING: I say it was an unjustifiable charge.

Mr. NAYLOR: The hon. Member for Doncaster gave instances of two boys of 16, an old man over 60 years of age, and a man carrying a child who were batoned by the police. I would like to know if the Home Secretary is prepared to answer that charge?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I do not know whether the hon. Member who has just interrupted me was present when I began my speech. If so, he must have heard me admit that these men were hurt in the baton charge. But the whole case I am putting is that if men are there when a baton charge takes place, they must accept the consequences unless they prove either that the baton charge was unjustifiable or that unnecessary violence was used. All I can say is that the hon. Member for Doncaster has not proved to my satisfaction either of those two charges. The hon. Member simply made a statement that a baton charge took place and certain people were injured. I agree that such a charge was made and that certain people were injured, but the hon. Member must give me more information on these points before I can agree to call for a public inquiry. The hon.
Member may contradict what I have said. He has seen me more than once in regard to many cases, and I am sure he has never found me unwilling td hear what he has to say, and if he can give me any more information in justification of the argument that the charge was unnecessary or unjustifiable, or that more force was used than was necessary, I will certainly consider the advisability of holding a further inquiry. I cannot say more than that, and the hon. Member must not assume that up to the present I put any blame whatever on the police for what they did on that occasion.

Mr. PALING: The Home Secretary says that it was round about 9.30 when the shifts were being changed. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these safety men who came out in that way actually went through the crowd, and not one of them was touched, and the baton charge took place half an hour after that?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: That is not my information. I do not think I need to repeat what is stated on this point in the report which I have already quoted, but I am quite prepared to receive any information which the hon. Member can place before me, and I am sure he has never found me unwilling to make inquiries. With regard to the speech made by the hon. and learned Member for South-East Leeds, I have often listened to him dealing with these particular Regulations, and it was interesting to find something fresh had turned up. Perhaps I may be allowed to deal with what was said by the hon. and learned Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney) at the same time. After the Act of Parliament dealing with these cases of emergency had been passed, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon (Mr. Lloyd George) actually made a speech supporting this Act which gives power to the magistrates or His Majesty's adviser, in cases where any action has been taken or is threatened by a person or body of persons of such a nature and of so extensive a scale as to be calculated to interfere with or prevent the supply of food or fuel. The right hon. Gentleman made a speech on this question, and he said that there is nothing in the present situation which prevents the supply of food.
I would like to point out, however, that the Act does not deal only with food, but with water, fuel, light, the means of locomotion, or anything which tends to deprive the community of the essentials of life. Under such circumstances, His Majesty may by proclamation do so and so, and when the emergency is there the Government can make Regulations to deal with it. Those are the Regulations which we are discussing this afternoon, and I really cannot believe that the House of Commons is going to say that there is no emergency at the present time, when there are over 1,000,000 men out of employment in a stoppage in the most important industry in the country.

Mr. BATEY: It is not a stoppage; it is a lock-out, and, perhaps, the right hon. Gentleman will use the proper word.

Sir W. JOYNSON - HICKS: No one will suggest that there is not an emergency on so extensive a scale as to be calculated to interfere with the supply of food and fuel. The House knows that, under the provisions of some other Emergency Regulations, restrictions have been put upon the consumption of coal, and they can only he put into force under the provisions of this Act of Parliament. If the Act of Parliament was not there, the Regulations which everybody agrees are necessary, could not have been brought into force. The hon. and learned Member opposite must not assume that there is no emergency because he is able to get his cwt. of coal every fortnight.

Mr. HARNEY: But there must be some immediate threat of some of the things referred to.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: With regard to the supply of fuel, the hon. and learned Member must agree with Regulations 21 and 22, and he cannot say that there is no emergency under the Act otherwise, all the Regulations referred to could not have been put into force. I think I have now established the point that there is an emergency, and that we are not acting ultra vires. Now we come to Regulation 21 which has been attacked largely in regard to cases of sedition. The Act deals with persons who do any act likely to cause sedition among any of His Majesty's forces or
among the civilian population and so forth. The hon. Member who raised this question made great play about sedition, and said that we were depriving a man accused of sedition of the right to go before a jury of his countrymen. The hon. and learned Member did not give me notice that he was going to raise this particular point; otherwise, I would have found out whether there have been any cases of sedition. I telephoned to the Chief Constable of Derbyshire, where I know there were the largest number of cases during the last month. I know there were 12 cases, and there was no case of sedition at all, although there were the proportion in Derbyshire, where 124 cases of impeding the supply of fuel. I think that answers the hon. and learned Gentleman's argument, and, if that is the proportion in Derbyshire, where 124 out of 129 cases were charges of impeding the supply of fuel, I think we may assume that a like pr9oportion took place in other districts, and that there was not a single case of sedition in the 129 instances.

Sir H. SLESSER: I include in the definition of sedition "causing disaffection," which is one of the conditions of sedition laid clown in a recent case.

Mr. LEE: Could the right hon. Gentleman give us some plainer definition of what he means by "impeding the supply of fuel"?

Mr. PALING: Are the coalowners impeding the supply of fuel?

Mr. LEE: May I give an illustration?

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The hon. Member may have an opportunity of speaking later. I think I had better try and complete the case which I have been putting. It is quite true that there were five cases of inciting to disaffection, and the hon. and learned Gentleman has complained that there was no right of trial by jury in those cases. That is very largely answered by the speech of an hon. and learned Member below the Gangway, and I am bound to say that I think that in a matter of this kind, when we are all hoping month by month, week by week, and even day by day, that the stoppage will end, it is very much better that cases of this kind should be dealt with summarily. There is then, at the outside, only the possibility of three months' im-
prisonment, and in only 13 of the 309 cases was the penalty of imprisonment imposed, the others being dealt with by small fines. It is very much better that that should be the case, not merely in the interests of the men themselves, but in the interests of peace as soon as the stoppage is over, rather than that a lot of cases should be sent to the Assizes, perhaps long after the stoppage is over, and that people should be prosecuted in these cases at the Assizes.
I am now going to tell the House something with regard to the trial of these cases. I have had to go into a great many appeals which are made to the Secretary of State to advise His Majesty to exercise the Royal clemency, and I have seen many hon. Members of this House. I had a deputation the other clay from outside the House, including the solicitor in one of the biggest cases that has taken place since the beginning of May. He came to me to ask if I would go through a very large number of cases of individual men who had been convicted and sentenced to imprisonment, and this is what he said—and it was supported by one of the leading Members of the Labour Party in this House. He said that these men had had a perfectly fair trial, and that he did not want to say one word against the trial or against the appeal—they went to Quarter Sessions by way of appeal. I said, "Have you a single suggestion to make that the men did not get a fair trial?" and he said. "Not one. We merely come to you admitting their offence, admitting that they were properly tried, and asking whether, after all, you cannot advise His Majesty to exercise his clemency in regard to them." That was a very proper attitude for him to take. I can assure the House that one of the most difficult and onerous matters with which I have to deal is the question of cases of this kind. It gives me an enormous amount of work. I go into them personally with a very great deal of care and attention, and it is, of course, quite right that hon. Members, if they think that certain cases are fit subjects for the Royal clemency, should Dome and put their case before me, as they are entitled to do. But in all these cases, with the exception, I think, of one, with regard
to which a statement was made in this House a few months ago by the hon. Member for Doncaster or one of his colleagues, in which a complaint was made about a certain justice, no case at all has ever been made that there was unfairness in regard to the trial. [HON. MEMBERS "Hear, hear!"] The hon. Member opposite confirms that. Therefore, I think I am right in saying that it is better that they should be disposed of quickly, as they are under this procedure.
There is only one other point to which I desire to refer—a new point which the hon. and learned Member made in his speech. He dug out a speech of my own, made in this House some six years ago, when the Emergency Powers Bill was passing through. I do not for a moment complain of what he read to the House. He said, quite truly, that I was then in Opposition, and viewed this Measure with grave anxiety, and that I put my views before the House with regard to the anxiety I felt. But what was the anxiety that I felt? It is in that speech. It was not that I was opposing the Bill; it was not that I objected to the powers being given to the Government; but the Bill as it was brought provided that there should be power for the Government of the day, the Coalition Government, to put these Regulations in force for 14 days without the assent of the House of Commons, and then, when the House of Commons was called together, it need not be called together for another 14 days under the provisions of the Bill as it was brought into this House. It was that that I attacked. If the hon. and learned Member will look at the latter part of my speech, which he did not read to the House, he will see what it was that I complained of. I said:
I would ask the Home Secretary, who is in charge, whether he would not consent to some modifications in this Bill. First, that Parliament should meet, not within 14 days, but should be called together the moment this necessity arises.
I went on to say:
I hope that the Government will assent to an Amendment in the Committee stage that the moment, that Regulations under this Act are made by any Government and Parliament is not sitting, Parliament shall be summoned at once. It could be summoned within three days. It certainly could be done within seven."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th October, 1920; col. 1422, Vol. 133.]
I concluded by saying that no House of Commons would refuse, when an emergency had arisen, to give these powers to the Government.
I was not complaining of the Act, but I said to the Government, "Do not give the Government powers without the assent of Parliament." I do not pretend to say that my speech on that occasion had any influence on the Government, but the Government of the day did alter their Bill, cutting out the 14 days and directing that the Act should take the form it has now, so that the Regulations would only have effect for seven days without the consent of the House of Commons, and that they should be forthwith laid on the Table of the House. In accordance with that provision, the Regulations come before the House to-day for its approval. That was the meaning of my speech, and these were, indeed, its very words. I stand by that speech in essence and verbally. I believe it was right. I am jealous, and always have been, of the rights and powers and privileges of the House of Commons, and I would not agree to the Government of the day imposing Regulations of this kind. The present Government have brought these Regulations six times before the House of Commons. Five times the House of Commons has approved of them, and I now ask the House, once more to give the Government these powers, which I, as the responsible Minister, say are necessary for the preservation of law and order.

Mr. SPEAKER: Mr. Spencer.

Mr. STEPHEN: Before the Home Secretary sits down, could he tell me—

HON. MEMBERS: Divide!

Mr. SPEAKER: I have called upon the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Spencer).

Mr. SPENCER: As my county has been, unhappily, involved in some of the disturbances that have occurred, I should like to say one or two words. The Home Secretary to-night, and other speakers on the opposite side of the House, have expressed a desire that each party should, as far as is humanly possible, exercise restraint. There is not only need for the
men to exercise restraint, under very great provocation and under very great temptation and impatience, but there is also, on the other hand, a very great need for the police themselves to exercise restraint. My hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster (Mr. Paling) has called the Home Secretary's attention to what has taken place at Doncaster, and the same thing might easily have happened in Nottingham, but for the timely intervention of myself and of the chief constable and the deputy chief constable, to whom I wish to-night to pay a tribute for their promptness in stopping what might have been a very serious disturbance. Very little disturbance arises out of the relationship between the men in the district and the police who know them, but, when a lot of fresh police are imported into a district, there is a danger of something unusual arising.
The Home Secretary may not believe me when I say that a deputation came to our office, and one of the men actually stated that he had been out picketing that morning, when one of these strange police had said to him:
You have had two days' quiet now, but we are going to get into you b—s to-night.
That was a fine statement for a policeman to make. The whole village was in a ferment, and was ripe for any kind of disorder. I regret very much that the man had not common sense enough to take the policeman's number, but he did not do so. Immediately I went to see the chief constable, and the deputy chief constable promptly went with me to that village. I had a large meeting and addressed the crowd, and from that moment there has not been a single thing heard of any disorder there of any kind. It was not because I made a speech, but because the deputy chief constable immediately went to the village and curbed the police, as far as their behaviour was concerned. We had women, who were standing on their own doorsteps, actually backed into their houses by the horses of the mounted police; we had men peacefully engaged in groups of four or five, and the police provoking them to disorder; and, but for the timely intervention of the chief constable and the deputy chief constable, we should have had a disturbance in the village.
I would ask the Home Secretary, if he has to draft police into districts where men may not yet have gone to work, where they may be going to work tomorrow, and where there may be a little excitement to begin with, to see to it that these strange police act in a way that is consonant with what the general conduct of the police should be. I do not think that any general charge can be made against the ordinary police that they have exceeded their duty; if we had anything at all to say, it would be against those policemen who do not know the men. The police in the district know the character of the men, and know how far they can trust them if there is a little excitement, and they know how to deal with it; but immediately a strange policeman sees a man a little excited, he takes advantage of him, and trouble begins. I sincerely hope that, if it be necessary to draft a body of police to any of these places, the Home Secretary will see that they exercise that restraint which he expects the men to exercise.
7.0 P.M.
I should like to draw the Home Secretary's attention to one or two other matters. The greatest difficulty in connection with disturbances is that it is very often the innocent more than the guilty who have to suffer. I had recently to go to a case in Court in connection with one man who had gone to work. When he came into the street, the people in the street commenced a little tin-panning and so on, but he was not touched, and it was more fun than anything else. [Interruption.] If hon. Members will listen to the case, they will be able to exercise their judgment upon it. What I want is justice on all sides. If a man wants to go to work, although I do not like to see him go as a blackleg, I have no hesitation in saying that he has a right to do so. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Therefore, let us have justice on all sides. A strange policeman brought that man home, and allowed the man to tell him whom he should summon. When the case came into Court, the policeman said that a certain man said certain things, but we were able to prove that that man was not there at all. Then we got the man into the witness-box, and he had to admit that the man referred to was not there; and yet the policeman, in the witness-box, had stated that the man had told him what this
man had said when he was there. The evidence was so unsatisfactory that the magistrate adjourned the whole case sine dic. I want him to see that when policemen do this kind of thing they exercise some restraint and some care before they charge a man. It is a serious thing to charge a man. He may not have a solicitor. He may not belong to the Association and he may have been acting quite innocently and yet be given "time." If the policeman is going to summons anyone, he should not take the tittle-tattle of neighbours in a district where there is all sorts of feeling. I know one man who is suffering two months for that. I am going to ask the Home Secretary that the Royal clemency should be exercised. Here is a working man, never in a Police Court in his life. He was not connected with the dispute. It was a quarrel on a Saturday night between a man and his wife. A man went in to try to settle it, and there was bloodshed. A second man went in and thought this man had struck the husband.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I think if it is a question of Royal clemency, it should not be discussed in this House.

Mr. SPENCER: I will not discuss it. I will let it stop at that. There is one more point I want to make. There is need for exercising Royal clemency, and I will tell you why. We are human, and even the right hon. Gentleman, like myself, has his prejudices. Another great injustice is that Labour leaders, justices of the peace, are prevented from sitting on those cases. They cannot, in my district. A Labour justice there has been told by the clerk to the magistrates that it is ultra vires for him to sit and adjudicate on these cases. Other people who have interests in the mines, directly or indirectly, are sitting and adjudicating. In eases of that character it is impossible for a man, to adjudicate as fairly as they would do under normal circumstances, and I am certain that the punishment of to-day in one or two cases is out of all proportion to the offence. It is a punishment that would never be meted out under ordinary circumstances. I hope that the magistrates of this country will exercise a little more restraint themselves and try to bring a little more justice into their adjudica-
tion, forgetting that they belong either to one class or the other, and let justice pre-eminently prevail among all classes.

Mr. T. WILLIAMS: I want to reply to some of the observations made by the right hon. Gentleman with regard to the Bullcroft baton charge. I listened very carefully to all that he had to say. I happen to have traversed that same district, listening to no fewer than 100 different people making their unbiassed statements. It would appear that the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman, ostensibly placed in his hands by the local chief of police, is neither more nor less than a tissue of lies. I do not suggest, of course, that every statement made by every one of the 100 persons was 100 per cent, accurate. Neither would I suggest that every statement made by the chief of police for that area is 100 per cent. wrong, but I am convinced, having listened to the statements of so many people, and having seen the injuries inflicted and knowing the individuals v-ho have received the injuries, that neither the Home Secretary nor the police can point to a single one of those 1,500 men workers who have been locked out for 20 weeks who have been in any sort of trouble during that time that has landed them in the Police Court. I know that to be the situation, and therefore I am satisfied from the statements I have heard from local people that in the first place this baton charge was unjustified.
My hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster (Mr. Paling), in making his first statement, definitely declared that if the chief constable, in his wisdom, felt that it was necessary that this crowd should be dispersed and had given them two minutes in which to disperse, he was convinced that every man, woman and child would have been well on their way home. They did not secure a two minutes' interval. The baton charge came spontaneously and without any sort of discrimination—man, woman and child were knocked down. I want to suggest that the chief of police did not attempt to reason with those 400 or 500 people. There were not over 2,000 people present. No sort of reasoning was attempted at all or the people would have dispersed to their homes. Every single statement made to us, when we
went to investigate the question, was to the effect that the charge was the most unprovoked charge that could be made on a body of innocent people. That being the case, in the first place we are satisfied that the chief of police exceeded his duty because of the existence of these Regulations. The statement of the numbers is absolutely and entirely wrong. I hope that some sort of an inquiry will be instituted so that at least the truth can be obtained from as many impartial witnesses as can be found.
With regard to the cause of this alleged unnecessary baton charge, I want to suggest, in the first place, that here are 3,000 miners who work at one of the most lucrative collieries in the South Yorkshire area, who value their work and wages as much as any body of workmen in the country, who know that to damage a pit is to damage the men themselves and their future. Therefore, when the moment arrived when the colliery officials made a request for certain safety men over and above the number, they readily consented to meet the president of the Miners' Federation, and reached an amicable agreement as to how many workmen should go to the colliery. They came to an agreement in the colliery offices. They gave the colliery company as many men as they required. The agreement was ratified that these men had to work upon the heatings—not the fires referred to by the Home Secretary. Possibly had they said, "We want to double those men," the men would have been doubled. Instead of the colliery officials acting with the courtesy shown towards them by the branch president and the workmen, they deliberately set out to break the agreement they had made with the men locally in the presence of the President of the Miners' Federation who used his influence on behalf of the colliery company. They broke that agreement on the second day. The agreement reached between the President of the Miners' Federation of Great Britain and the colliery manager with other officials was to the effect that the safety men were to work upon the heatings at this colliery to prevent fire breaking out in certain agreed spots which were visited by Mr. Herbert Smith and other members of the Committee. On the second day these men were diverted from the spot at which
it had been arranged for them to work, and they were placed actually producing coal in contravention of the agreement previously reached. If any hon. Members opposite know anything about gob fires they know the danger of the work, and they must appreciate the 36 men who willingly volunteered to work there. It is a very dangerous work, and a very unpleasant task; but they went. They preferred to work on the heatings and keep the colliery in good condition rather than that they should be diverted to more wholesome work which was not in acordance with the agreement which had been reached.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The hon. Member is making statements so divergent that I should like it quite clear. My information is that these men were moved from one heating place to another heating place in order to deal with a fresh heating which had taken place. Does the hon. Member really mean to say that the colliery owners of this valuable property turned men away from the burning point in order to get fresh coal?

Mr. WILLIAMS: I tried to make my statement clear. It was this: The President of the Miners' Federation of Great Britain, along with members of the local miners' committee, descended the colliery with the manager, and probably some other officials. They agreed that this spot was a heating, that this was another heating, that to prevent a conflagration it was necessary that a certain number of men should be employed on the three working shifts, and that in no circumstances must they be diverted to other work, particularly the production of coal. It is perfectly true to say that the colliery managers suggested, while these committee men were in the pit, that they probably ought to take off a certain piece of coal. But that was not agreed to. [HON. MEMBERS "Oh!"] If hon. Members will contain themselves for a moment, I shall certainly not attempt to mislead the House. It is true to say that the colliery managers suggested that a certain piece of coal should be taken away. That was not consented to. Immediately the men commenced to work on the heatings on the second day these
men were diverted to the taking away of that piece of coal which had not been agreed to by the deputation.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: This is really a very important case. Does the hon. Member say that the colliery managers, knowing their business, and having this valuable property and the future of the men in their hands, were deliberately getting coal for profit, and that this piece of coal—[An HON. MEMBER: "Nothing of the kind!"]—that is what the hon. Member is saying—and that this piece of coal was not necessary to be taken away in order to prevent further heatings.

Mr. WILLIAMS: Obviously, if the manager makes a statement that probably it may be preferable to remove a piece of coal in connection with the work on the heating, the manager thinks it necessary to remove it. Other people with 30 or 40 or 50 years practical experience may have a different point of view. The miner who commences work at the pit at 13, and continues to work there through all phases of the production of coal until he is 50 should have an equal knowledge as to what is dangerous and what is not, dangerous where heatings are actually taking place. I am not concerned with that. What I am concerned with is that these men in this district for 20 weeks have stood the test. Not a man, woman or child has broken the law. At least not a person has been called upon to answer for breaking the law. The men did intend to be fair to the colliery, to assist them to protect their property. The colliery officials were not so courteous. They broke an agreement. Unfortunately, the decision was reached, and officials from other collieries five and seven miles away were brought over to work at the pit.

Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: To put oft the fire and save the pit.

Mr. WILLIAMS: To work on the heatings or to perform this safety work. Nothing happened. No one disagrees with officials from other collieries being diverted to this colliery. They did not object, and there was no demonstration; but the colliery company, with the assistance of the chief of police, at a certain moment import a large number of strange policemen who do not know the district
at all. This created a psychology which ought not to have been created. Crowds of people assembled where they ought not, and would not have assembled had it not been for this collection of strange police. The 500 people who were congregated on the evening of 15th September who would have been there had it not been for the accumulation of strange policemen. They would not have been there had it not been for these Regulations, and this baton charge would not have taken place. Then the right hon. Gentleman said, "Here is a district closed down, putting 500 men out of work for all time." He would not have made that statement had he any practical knowledge. It may very well be that if beatings were taking place—and I do not deny that they were—it was found necessary to fence the district up. It may be

twelve months or even six years before that same piece of coal can be got through and made workable, but the statement that that district is fenced off for ever would only be made by some unfortunate person who had little or no mining technology. This baton charge was unprovoked and ought not to have taken place. Innocent people have been made to suffer, and a district which has kept the peace for so long has been brutalised because of these Regulations placed in the hands of an irresponsible chief of police who has neglected to preserve the district, the property and the pit, and the good feeling which existed up to 15th September.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The House divided: Ayes, 104; Noes, 215.

Division No. 437.]
AYES.
[7.20 p.m.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Hardie, George D.
Sitch, Charles H.


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Siesser, Sir Henry H.


Batey, Josepn
Hirst, G. H.
Smillie, Robert


Beckett, John (Gateshead)
Hirst, w. (Bradford, South)
Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)


Bondfield, Margaret
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)
Snell, Harry


Briant, Frank
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip


Bromfield, William
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)
Stamford, T. W.


Buchanan, G.
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Stephen, Campbell


Cape, Thomas
Kelly, W. T.
Sullivan, J.


Clowes, S.
Kennedy, T.
Sutton, J. E.


Cluse, W. S.
Lansbury, George
Taylor, R. A.


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Lawrence, Susan
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Connolly, M.
Lawson, John James
Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)


Crawfurd, H. E.
Lee, F.
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Dalton, Hugh
Lindley, F. W.
Thurtle, Ernest


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Lowth, T.
Tinker, John Joseph


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Lunn, William
Varley, Frank B.


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)
Viant, S. P.


Day, Colonel Harry
March, S.
Wallhead, Richard C.


Dennison, R.
Montague, Frederick
Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen


Duncan, C.
Murnin, H.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Dunnico, H.
Naylor, T. E.
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Fenby, T. D.
Oliver, George Harold
Westwood, J.


Gillett, George M.
Palin, John Henry
Whiteley, W.


Gosling, Harry
Paling, W.
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Ponsonby, Arthur
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Greenall, T.
Potts, John S.
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)


Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Purcell, A. A.
Windsor, Walter


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Wright, W.


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Ritson, J.
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Groves, T.
Saklatvala, Shapurji



Grundy, T. W.
Scurr, John
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Hayes.


Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis



NOES.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Barnett, Major Sir Richard
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)
Briggs, J. Harold


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Briscoe, Richard George


Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)
Berry, Sir George
Brocklebank, C. E. R.


Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)
Betterton, Henry B.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.
Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Buckingham, Sir H.


Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.
Blades, Sir George Rowland
Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Blundell, F. N.
Burman, J. B.


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Boothby, R. J. G.
Burton, Colonel H. W.


Banks, Reginald Mitchell
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Butt, Sir Alfred


Barclay-Harvey, C. M.
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward


Caine, Gordon Hall
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Pilcher, G.


Cassels, J. D.
Holland, Sir Arthur
Pilditch, Sir Philip


Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.)
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Power, Sir John Cecil


Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Price, Major C. W. M.


Chapman, Sir S.
Hopkins, J. W. W.
Radford, E. A.


Christie, J. A.
Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)
Raine, W.


Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Ramsden, E.


Clayton, G. C.
Hore-Belisha, Leslie
Rawson, Sir Cooper


Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)


Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N).
Remnant, Sir James


Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)
Rentoul, G. S.


Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Hume, Sir G. H.
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.


Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Rice, Sir Frederick


Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.
Hurd, Percy A.
Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)


Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.
Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)


Cunliffe, Sir Herbert
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Ropner, Major L.


Curzon, Captain Viscount
Jacob, A. E.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Dalkeith, Earl of
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Rye, F. G.


Dalziel, Sir Davison
Jephcott, A. R.
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)


Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)
Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Sandeman, A. Stewart


Davies, Dr. Vernon
Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William
Sanders, Sir Robert A.


Dawson, Sir Philip
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Sandon, Lord


Dixey, A. C.
Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Shepperson, E. W.


Edmondson, Major A. J.
Kindersley, Major Guy M.
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon


Ellis, R. G.
King, Captain Henry Douglas
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)


Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)
Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Smith-Carington, Neville W.


Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Smithers, Waldron


Fermoy, Lord
Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Fielden, E. B.
Loder, J. de V.
Sprot, Sir Alexander


Finburgh, S.
Lougher, L.
Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)


Ford, Sir P. J.
Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Storry-Deans, R.


Forestier-Walker, Sir L.
Lynn, Sir R. J.
Streatfeild, Captain S. R.


Foster, Sir Harry S.
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Strickland, Sir Gerald


Foxcroft, Captain C. T.
Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.


Frece, Sir Walter de
MacIntyre, Ian
Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)


Galbraith, J. F. W.
MacRobert, Alexander M.
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Ganzoni, Sir John
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid


Gates, Percy.
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.


Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton
Malone, Major P. B.
Tasker, Major R. Inigo


Goff, Sir Park
Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)


Gower, Sir Robert
Meller, R. J.
Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-


Grace, John
Merriman, F. B.
Tinne, J. A.


Graham, Frederick F. (Cumbld., N.)
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Waddington, R.


Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)
Moles, Thomas
Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.


Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Waterhouse, Captain Charles


Grotrian, H. Brent
Moore, Sir Newton J.
Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)


Gunston, Captain D. W.
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Watts, Dr. T.


Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Moreing, Captain A. H.
Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.


Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
Murchison, C. K.
Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)


Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph
Winby, Colonel L. P.


Harrison, G. J. C.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Wise, Sir Fredric


Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)
Withers, John James


Haslam, Henry C.
Nuttall, Ellis
Womersley, W. J.


Hawke, John Anthony
Oakley, T.
Woodcock, Colonel H. C.


Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)
Owen, Major G.
Wragg, Herbert


Henderson, Lieut. Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.


Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Perring, Sir William George



Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)
Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Major Cope and Captain Lord Stanley.


Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy
Philipson, Mabel

Mr. JOHNSTON: I beg to move, in line 3, after "1926," to insert the words, "other than Regulation 33."
This Regulation I take to be the most unnecessary and the most reactionary of all. In the latter portion the Home Secretary takes power whereby he, or any constable acting on his behalf, may enter upon the premises of any registered newspaper—any political opponent of his own—seize the plant or any portion of it and dispose of it as he chooses, being under no obligation whatever to go into a law court and justify his action. His justification for this is that there has
been no case in which he has been compelled to use his powers under the Regulation. In that case there is no warrant whatever for asking for the continuance of the Regulation. But there are very serious dangers here. Any chief constable, if he suspects somebody of being about to print or publish something which is an offence against these Regulations, may enter the premises without a warrant. If there were another type of Home Secretary on the Government Bench, I could direct his attention to a hundred speeches made during the past two months which incite to public
disorder, speeches printed and published by the most reputable newspapers in the country supporting his own side. Take, for instance, the speech delivered the other day by a distinguished potentate known as the Maharajah of Alwar. He went to Inverness. His chairman is, I believe, a member of His Majesty's Government, Lord Lovat. I think Lord Lovat holds some position in the Government as chairman of the Forestry Commission. In his speech, the Maharajah almost incited to murder, because he frankly proposed to introduce panthers and to allow them to roam about the hills of Scotland as a means of scaring away anyone who would interfere with his sport. That is surely inciting to disorder. If another Home Secretary held the position, I have no doubt that any newspaper which published a report of that speech by the Maharajah of Alwar might have its plant seized and disposed of and the place closed up for as long as the Home Secretary liked, without any prosecution, and without any necessity to take the case into any Law Court.
There was another speech, which was reported in last Saturday's "Liverpool Daily Post." It is a report of a meeting of the Wigan Board of Guardians on the previous day. It is headed "A very drastic way of ending the coal stoppage." Certainly it would be a very drastic way. One of the guardians said:
In the old days if an able-bodied man received Poor Law relief a constable had the power to arrest him, and he was whipped, placed in the stocks for 24 hours, then had a hole driven through his ear with a red hot iron bar. If we come back to that state of the law,—
says this precious guardian—
we should soon have the strike settled.
That, surely, is an incitement to public disorder. It is a greater incitement in a colliery district than any speech that I have read on the side of the colliers. The "Liverpool Daily Post" could have its property and plant seized under this Regulation for publishing this incitement to public disorder. Undoubtedly, under the present Home Secretary they are perfectly safe, because we have class administration of the law.
If another kind of Home Secretary sat there, a Home Secretary perhaps selected
by the Miners' Federation of Great Britain, I do not know what might happen, but I do not think that anybody would be so insane as to use this Regulation. This Regulation could be so used as to destroy any criticism of the Administration of the day. Under this Regulation you destroy the freedom of the Press. [HON. MEMBERS: "Question!"] Yes. The Home Secretary has power to enter the premises of any registered newspaper and to seize the plant and dispose of it as he thinks proper, without being compelled to go into any law Court to justify his action. In that way he is carrying interference with the liberty of the subject a great deal further than many hon. Members opposite really want. It is a very useful precedent, and may be a very useful precedent in the days that are to be when another type of Government may inflict its views upon its political opponents. Personally, I hope that no Government ever will do that. I believe in human liberty and human rights, and I hope: no Government will use such a Regulation as this.
I am amazed that the Home Secretary should persist in bringing forward this Regulation. On the last occasion he was quite manifestly distressed that he should be compelled to ask for this Regulation. He said that it raised a point of law and he would much rather it was discussed in a Court of Law than in the House of Commons. He said that it seemed to him as a layman that there was power for a chief officer of police to enter a newspaper office and take the necessary steps. He was unhappy about it. He could not defend it. On the different occasions that this Regulation has come before the House no one has defended it. As far as I know, the only occasion on which any such Regulation was ever operated was when the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), during the heyday of his popularity and power, put it into operation. He certainly used such a Regulation. He seized the printing plant of his political opponents. He kept the printing plant of his political opponents disused for periods of six weeks in cases where he could not take his political opponents into a Court of Law and get a verdict, and where no lawyer would justify his attitude. Under the reactionary powers such as are given
in this Regulation the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs operated in that way against his opponents.
As long as I am a Member of this House, I intend to oppose on every possible occasion an extension of bureaucratic powers by any Home Secretary or any officials whereby he can at his own sweet will, and without requiring any legal sanction for his action, seize the printing presses of his political opponents and close them. That is what this Regulation means, and I intend to go into the Division Lobby against it, unless the Home Secretary or the Government will add a Clause, saying that they shall be compelled to go into a court of law to get justification for their action in any case where they seek to operate this Regulation.

Mr. HARDIE: I beg to second the Amendment.
There is no need for a Government with such a majority to ask for such a Regulation. Such a Regulation belongs to the uncivilised mind of the past. It is only an uncivilised mind that would suggest that in these days anyone should be put into prison without being told the reasons for the act being carried out against them. It would seem that in this Regulation we are taking a departure from our sense of justice. As a nation we have always been held to act justly. Surely, there is no justice in arresting an individual without giving that individual the right to explain the charge that may be made against him. I am not surprised at the present Government wanting this Regulation, because, although they have a majority in this House, they have a fear in their hearts of the public opinion which is being created by their actions. Whenever anyone acts from, fear that person always acts on the lower mental plane, always on the save uncivilised plane. Courageous people do not require to have power to do an unjust thing to an individual. Courageous people always act justly.
There is no sense of justice in this Regulation. To arrest without warrant, means giving power to a certain individual. Paragraph 3 of the Regulation provides that any police constable may search any person. That is a very big power to give to a body of men anywhere.
It is too much to ask that the individuals making up this nation should submit themselves to the risk of being stopped and searched. The whole of these Regulations have failed in the purpose for which the Government brought them forward. They brought them forward with the idea of causing irritation that would lead to the need for the application of their Regulations. They have failed miserably, because those against whom the Regulations were directed have developed a greater sense of national responsibility than the Government, and have not done the things which the Government would have liked them to do so as to put themselves in the wrong. A Regulation like this tells me that the Government, with its majority, controlling the affairs of the State to-day are simply quaking in their shoes from fear. I can imagine hon. Members opposite being stopped on a. dark road by a police constable, who insists on searching them, and I can imagine how they would feel when the hands were going through their pockets, if there was anything in the pockets. We read of the ancient wild west days, and of the broncho punchers and the cow punchers, and of a man getting a rifle barrel into his back. We smile at that and say that it belongs to a past age. In this Regulation we have the cowboy men on the other side. When the Government give the right to an individual to carry out such powers as are covered in this Regulation, it shows that they have no sense of justice. They ought not to ask any of their fellow-countrymen to be subject to this form of in justice.

Mr. LEE: I wish to emphasise one or two things that have happened in Derbyshire in connection with policemen arresting men without warrant. The other night, about 10.30, three men came to my house, one of whom had a brother who had been arrested that night. The story told to me was that four men were sitting by the roadside—there was no question of anyone either going to or coming from work—and talking, when a policeman came up and said in a rough manner, which seems to me to be rather common for the Manchester police, that these men must go away. Three of them without any question did so. The fourth man said quietly, "What are we doing wrong; why should we go away?" Forth-
with, he was arrested and taken to the police station four miles away. His brother with two other men, went to bail him out the same night. When they got to the police station, the police said, "We do not know what the charge is against your brother; we cannot bail him out. Can you find a magistrate?" They rang up to my office and asked me to come down to the Court. I asked what was the matter? Then I got on the telephone to the police station and got into conversation with the Superintendent, who said: "I cannot let the man at liberty because I do not know what the charge is. The policeman who brought him in is not here and he has left no charge. I cannot bail the man out or let him go." I said: "Suppose I come down, will that help?" He said: "No." He told me later that if the policeman came in and laid a charge, and the Superintendent thought it was not serious enough, he would let the man go. I do not know what happened. Except that the man was not given his liberty. He was brought before the Court next morning but no charge was brought against him and he was sent home.
Another case is that of a woman between 60 and 70. She admits having said to two young fellows who were coming from the colliery, "You do look nice coming home in your pit clothes." That is all with which she was charged. She was arrested and taken to the lockup four miles away. Next morning she was charged with the offence. The prosecuting Counsel said: "I cannot believe the witness's testimony, and I am withdrawing the case." In the same village a lad of 19 or 20 was charged with intimidation and with an offence at a certain hour on 15th September. He told the policeman that he was in bed at that hour, and said: "If you will go to my home and see my mother and sister they will tell you that I was in bed at that hour." The youth was arrested. He is a youth well known in the place, and he has never lived anywhere else. He was taken to the police station and had to be bailed out. He was brought before the Court the next day, when the man upon whose charge he was arrested said: "This is not the man at all." The case was dismissed.
I suggest that to put into the hands of strange policemen the power to arrest without a warrant, or without making any charge at all, is too much. In an adjoining village a man whom I know quite well, and who has never lived anywhere else—I knew his father and grandfather—a man who holds the responsible position of a county councillor, who is a householder and owns property in the town, was arrested. He is a man who could be found at any time when he was wanted. There was no particular charge against them. He had to be bailed out. When before the Court the case was withdrawn by the prosecuting counsel. It is too late in the day to give strange policemen powers of this description in districts where they are not wanted. I make a solemn protest against this kind of thing happening. We are making no complaints at all with regard to the local policemen. But there have been imported into Derbyshire a lot of big fellows, fine-looking fellows physically, who are carrying out their duties in a way not contemplated by the Regulations, and I am convinced that they are exceeding their duties in very many cases.
I know of another case of a man who was walking down the street alone in the evening. He was told by a policeman, "You had better get home or there will be trouble." A little further down the same street was the wife of a Justice of the Peace, standing at her own cottage gate, and the same policeman said to her, "You had better get inside or there will be further trouble." No charge was made and nothing happened. There was nobody coming from work or going to work at the time. Cases of that kind could be multiplied in Derbyshire. They are not cases brought by local policemen, and not cases where there has been any trouble or any breach of the peace.
The Home Secretary gave a list of cases from Derbyshire, including a number of cases of "impeding the supply of fuel." In my constituency there is a workmen's club. Five members of that club started to work again. That created feeling between the members of the club. The Committee held a meeting and said, "If these men come to the club in the usual way and get anything to drink there will be a row. In the interests of peace we instruct the secretary to ask these five men not to come to the club
during the dispute." The phrase they used was, "Kindly refrain from attending the club during this dispute." They concluded by saying, "If you come, we shall refuse to serve." The men never entered the club and there was no refusal. But the secretary of the club was summoned for impeding the supply of fuel by refusing to supply these men with beer. The case was not dismissed; the man was fined £6 and costs. Cases of this kind can be multiplied galore in Derbyshire, and they exceed anything ever contemplated by the Regulations.

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Captain Hacking): The hon. Member who has just spoken cannot expect me to reply in detail on the cases he has mentioned. I suggest to him that, if he has not already done so, he should call the attention of the Home Secretary to some of the cases, and if he does so in full detail, I am confident that my right hon. Friend will carry out a careful investigation. I am not going to discuss the question whether beer should be considered as fuel or not. I leave that to those who have more experience.
The hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Johnston) made two complaints. The first was against this Regulation in general, with regard to the power of arrest without warrant, and the second was to the proviso in relation to newspapers. Actually that proviso is a diminution of the power of the Home Secretary or the power of the Regulation. It will be noticed that this Regulation, generally speaking, gives the police certain powers. The proviso prevents the police from taking certain action unless the Home Secretary authorises such action to be taken. Therefore, the proviso, instead of being an enlargement of the powers of the Regulation, is, in fact, a diminution of the powers. The hon. Member went on to say that the Home Secretary might use his political powers to do something to a newspaper, to raid a newspaper office, which would be undesirable in the hon. Member's opinion. The mere fact that there has been no charge under this particular Regulation is sufficient justification for saying that the Home Secretary would not be likely to use his powers unduly. The hon. Member gave the defence himself, when
he said that these powers had never been used. Of course, they are not likely to be used unless necessity actually arises. The hon. Member spoke of a Liverpool paper from which he quoted, and he said that this paper would certainly be safe under the present Home Secretary. He was rather anxious for the safety of that paper if there were a different party in power.

Mr. JOHNSTON: My point was that if there were another Home Secretary, that Liverpool paper could have its plant dismantled, and could be put out of business, should the Home Secretary desire it, because the paper had published a statement which was clearly an incitement to sedition, although it was a report of a guardians' meeting.

Captain HACKING: If there were another Home Secretary in power. All I can suggest to the hon. Member is that a future Home Secretary should take his example from the present Home Secretary. At any rate, there can be no complaint so far as the present Home Secretary is concerned with regard to the raiding of newspaper offices.

Mr. JOHNSTON: Why take the powers without asking legal sanction?

Captain HACKING: As these powers have never been abused, the hon. Member has no cause for complaint. It is not for me to say how the Regulations should be altered. Hon. Members opposite do not complain that these, Regulations have actually been put into operation.

Mr. JOHNSTON: All that we are asking is that you should give us a pledge that in any case in which you operate that Regulation you will undertake to go into a Law Court and get confirmation for what would otherwise be an illicit action.

Captain HACKING: The hon. Member knows that I cannot give him such a pledge. The Home Secretary did not give the pledge, and the hon. Member cannot expect an Under-Secretary to do what the Home Secretary would not do. The hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie) also dealt with the general powers of arrest without a warrant. I think that the present is the fifth occasion on which this question has been discussed. It has been dealt with by the
Home Secretary, by the Attorney-General, and on previous occasions by myself. It is no very great departure from the present law that a person should have powers of arrest without a warrant. Any private person, including a constable, may arrest without warrant under the existing law. Under the present law a private person may arrest a person to prevent the perpetration of a felony about to be committed, or a person attempting to commit a felony; a private person may arrest without warrant a person found committing certain misdemeanours or any indictable or summary offence under the Malicious Damages Act, 1861, against his property, and any other person authorised by the owner can also arrest; or a person committing an indictable offence at night. I need not go into these; there are several cases. So that is sufficient to show that this is not a very great departure from the present law.

Mr. JOHNSTON: But he is liable to action for civil damage.

Captain HACKING: That is perfectly true. I am not going to deny that, but

the complaint which has been made is that this power of arrest without warrant should not be allowed, and all I am stating is that it is not a very great departure from the present existing law.

Mr. HARDIE: The power of arrest without warrant carries with it the right of that individual to be tried and have some say in it, but this gives no chance at all.

Captain HACKING: That is perfectly true, but that operates when the condition of the country is normal; and the Government are of opinion that as this emergency is still in existence they cannot, under existing circumstances, give away this safeguard which they consider reasonable and absolutely necessary in the interests of the peace of the community.

Mr. JOHNSON: Not one case under it.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The House divided: Ayes, 99; Noes, 212.

Division No. 438.]
AYES.
[8.3 p.m.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Hardie, George D
Sitch, Charles H


Batey, Joseph
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Smillie, Robert


Beckett, John (Gateshead)
Hirst, G. H.
Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)


Bondfield, Margaret
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Snell, Harry


Briant, Frank
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip


Bromfield, William
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Stamford, T. W.


Buchanan, G.
Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)
Stephen, Campbell


Cape, Thomas
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Sullivan, J.


Clowes, S.
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Sutton, J. E.


Cluse, W. S.
Kelly, W. T.
Taylor, R. A.


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Kennedy, T.
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Connolly, M.
Lansbury, George
Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro., W.)


Dalton, Hugh
Lawson, John James
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)
Lee, F.
Thurtle, Ernest


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Lindley, F. W.
Tinker, John Joseph


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Lowth, T.
Varley, Frank B.


Day, Colonel Harry
Lunn, William
Viant, S. P.


Dennison, R.
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)
Wallhead, Richard C.


Duncan, C.
March, S.
Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen


Dunnico, H.
Montague, Frederick
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Fenby, T. D.
Murnin, H.
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Gillett, George M.
Naylor, T. E.
Westwood, J.


Gosling, Harry
Oliver, George Harold
Whiteley, W.


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Palin, John Henry
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Greenall, T.
Ponsonby, Arthur
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)


Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Petts, John S.
Windsor, Walter


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Purcell, A. A.
Wright, W.


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Groves, T.
Ritson, J.



Grundy, T. W.
Scurr, John
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Hayes.


NOES.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)
Atholl, Duchess of


Alexander, E. E. (Layton)
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon, Wilfrid W.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)


Banks, Reginald Mitchell
Grotrian, H. Brent
Oman, Sir Charles William C.


Barclay-Harvey, C. M.
Gunston, Captain D. W.
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William


Barnett, Major Sir Richard
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Owen, Major G.


Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.)
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
Perkins, Colonel E. K.


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Harrison, G. J. C.
Perring, Sir William George


Berry, Sir George
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)


Betterton, Henry B.
Haslam, Henry C.
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Hawke, John Anthony
Philipson, Mabel


Blades, Sir George Rowland
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Pilcher, G.


Blundell, F. N.
Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxford, Henley)
Pilditch, Sir Philip


Boothby, R. J. G.
Henderson, Lieut.-Col, V. L. (Bootle)
Power, Sir John Cecil


Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Price, Major C. W. M.


Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart
Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)
Radford, E. A.


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir. D. (St. Marylebone)
Raine, W.


Briggs, J. Harold
Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy
Ramsden, E.


Briscoe, Richard George
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Rawson, Sir Cooper


Brocklebank, C. E. R.
Holland, Sir Arthur
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)


Broun-Lindsay, Major H.
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Remnant, Sir James


Buckingham, Sir H.
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Rentoul, G. S.


Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan
Hopkins, J. W. W.
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.


Burman, J. B.
Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)
Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)


Burton, Colonel H. W.
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)


Butt, Sir Alfred
Hore-Belisha, Leslie
Ropner, Major L.


Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Caine, Gordon Hall
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Rye, F. G.


Campbell, E. T.
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Cassels, J. D.
Hume, Sir G. H.
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)


Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)
Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Sandeman, A. Stewart


Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Hurd, Percy A.
Sanders, Sir Robert A.


Chapman, Sir S.
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. F. S.
Sandon, Lord


Christie, J. A.
Jackson, Sir K. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Clayton, G. C.
Jacob, A. E.
Shepperson, E. W.


Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon


Cohen, Major J. Brunel
Jephcott, A. R.
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)


Colfox, Major William Phillips
Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Smith-Carington, Neville W.


Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L.
Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William
Smithers, Waldron


Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Stanley, Col. Hon. G, F. (Will'sden, E.)


Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.
Kindersley, Major Guy M.
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)


Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
King, Captain Henry Douglas
Storry-Deans, R.


Cunliffe, Sir Herbert
Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Streatfeild, Captain S. R.


Curzon, Captain Viscount
Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.


Dalkeith, Earl of
Locker- Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)


Dalziel, Sir Davison
Loder, J. de V.
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)
Lougher, L.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid


Davies, Dr. Vernon
Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.


Dawson, Sir Philip
Lynn, Sir R. J.
Tacker, Major R. Inigo


Dixey, A. C.
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-


Edmondson, Major A. J.
Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Tinne, J. A.


Ellis, R. G.
MacIntyre, Ian
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)
MacRobert, Alexander M.
Waddington, R.


Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.


Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Waterhouse, Captain Charles


Fermoy, Lord
Malone, Major P. B.
Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)


Fielden, E. B.
Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.
Watts, Dr. T.


Finburgh, S.
Meller, R. J.
Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. K.


Ford, Sir P. J.
Merriman, F. B.
Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)


Forestler-Walker, Sir L.
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Winby, Colonel L. P.


Foster, Sir Harry S.
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Wise, Sir Fredric


Frece, Sir Walter de
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Withers, John James


Galbraith, J. F. W.
Moore, Sir Newton J.
Womersley, W. J.


Ganzoni, Sir John
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Gates, Percy
Moreing, Captain A. H.
Wragg, Herbert


Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton
Murchison, C. K.
Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.


Goff, Sir Park
Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph



Gower, Sir Robert
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Grace, John
Nuttall, Ellis
Major Cope and Mr. F. C. Thomson.


Graham, Frederick F. (Cumbld., N.)
Oakley, T.

Mr. BATEY: I beg to move, in line 4, at the end, to add the words
and to the substitution in Regulation 14, lines 1 and 16, of the word 'shall' for the word 'may.'
The object of this Amendment is that the Government shall take over the mines, open them and work them. I am moving the Amendment now for the third time. Last month, when I moved it, I
believed we were on strong ground in doing so, but to-night I believe we are on far stronger ground than we were four weeks ago. We have got now almost to the end of the second day's Debate; we are in sight of the Adjournment of the House for another month, and we are likely to adjourn in altogether a different atmosphere from that when we adjourned last
month. When we adjourned last month there was an atmosphere of negotiation and of something being done to settle the crisis. To-night, everything at the moment looks as black as it possibly can do, and we seem to be just where we were in the very first week of the dispute. I want to arm the Government with this Regulation because I believe that if they are so armed they would be in an altogether different position from what they are at the moment. I listened to the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday, and in listening to his tale of the way in which the owners have treated the Government with contempt, and the way in which they had simply slapped the face of the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he was wanting them to come to a conference, seem to suggest that the Government needs far more power than it has at present in order to deal with the owners. I know there are two ways in which it might be suggested that the Government could bring the owners to reason. I have heard it suggested that they could repeal the Eight Hours Act or they could take the course that I am suggesting now. One does not expect the Government, having passed the Eight Hours Act, to repeal it, so I am suggesting another course—it may be a lesser course and a different course—for the purpose of dealing with the owners.
In yesterday's Debate there were three lessons which we learned which strengthen me in moving this Amendment. The first lesson was the hopelessness of the Prime Minister at the present time. The second was the obstinacy of the owners—what the Prime Minister in his speech called not so much the obstinacy as the stupidity of the owners. The third lesson was the remedy proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) when yesterday, as Leader of the Liberal party, he suggested to the Government the course which I am suggesting tonight—that they should take over the mines. I hope he will be in the Division Lobby to-night to vote for this Amendment. Seeing that the Leader of the Liberal party took this course yesterday, I hope I shall have the whole of the Liberal party to-night in the Lobby with me to fight for this
Amendment. As I have said, I was impressed yesterday with the hopelessness of the Prime Minister. I want to put some backbone into him and the way which I am proposing is to arm him with this Regulation No. 14, altered in the way I am proposing. Of course, I can well understand the Prime Minister would argue against this Amendment along the lines of his speech yesterday, because he argued then against Parliamentary interference with industry. I am surprised to hear the Prime Minister arguing against Parliamentary interference with industry, because it is far too late for any Prime Minister to argue along that line.
Many benefits have come to the coal-mining industry of this country through Parliamentary interference. It was Parliamentary interference with the industry which prevented women and children from working in the mines. It was Parliamentary interference which compelled the coalowners to sink two shafts into each coal mine, so that if any accident happened to one shaft the men had an outlet by the other. It was Parliamentary interference which gave us the Minimum Wage Act—one of the good things which Parliament did for the mining industry—and it is too late now for any Member of this Government to say that there should be no interference by Parliament with the coal industry. I am certain the Secretary for Mines would not argue that the Government ought not to interfere with the industry, especially when he remembers that the Government is spending much public money in buying foreign coal in order to defeat the miners. I wish to give the Prime Minister this Regulation in the altered form which I propose, because, yesterday, he argued that it was not possible for the Government to compel the owners to open the pits. It is foolish of the Prime Minister to talk like that to-day.
In 1917 in my own county of Durham there were owners who wanted to close the pits but the Government and the Coal Controller of that day said, "No, there is a War and you will not be allowed to close coal pits," and the owners were then compelled to keep open the pits. If the owners could be compelled to open the pits in 1917, it is foolish to argue to-day that they cannot be compelled to do so. This Government, if they did not
believe that they would succeed in starving the miners into submission, could compel the owners to open the pits and one of the readiest ways of doing so would be to accept this Amendment. Then in the event of the owners declining to open the pits, the Government could take possession of and work the pits themselves. Further, I wish the Prime Minister to have the aid of this Regulation in the altered form which we suggest because it is clear that up to the present the right hon. Gentleman has not been a good negotiator. In the negotiations with the Miners' Federation and with the coalowners he has acted the part of an auctioneer rather than that of a negotiator. He has been saying to the Miners' Federation, "Take this—it is going, it is gone."

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I do not see how this argument applies to the Amendment.

Mr. BATEY: I am arguing that it is desirable to alter this Regulation, in order to help the Prime Minister to do his work properly. He has not been doing it properly up to the present, and I believe his hands would be strengthened and he would be in a better position to negotiate with those whom he calls the stupid coalowners if he had this Regulation altered. Last month, when we moved this Amendment, the Secretary for Mines said it was nationalisation. It is not. I want nationalisation, but I am bound to confess that I would be rather afraid of the nationalisation given by a Tory Government. If the coalowners were wise they would take it while the Tory Government is in power, because they would get better treatment than they are likely to get when Labour comes into power. But this is not nationalisation. There is a state of emergency, and in the interest of the country we believe that the Government ought to work the pits. We believe it ought to be done in the interest of the mining community, which is being gradually pushed into poverty. I suppose that, as a result of this stoppage, there are some among the mining class who will never get out of poverty and debt as long as they live. In their interest we believe the Government ought to accept this Amendment,
but we also believe that they ought to do so in the interest of the general community.
The Secretary for Mines, in answering questions regarding the price of coal, said there was a prospect of coal becoming dearer as the weather became cooler. It is a black prospect for the poorest classes of the community and, in their interest, the Government ought to take the step of working the pits so that people may get coal at a reasonable price. I move this Amendment in the belief that unless the Government have this power they will never make any headway with the coalowners. Long years of experience with the coalowners teach us that unless there is some strong power behind the Government they will never make any progress with the coalowners. In fact, the coalowners have pulled the Government. The miners have been prepared to take a step forward in the interest of peace; the coalowners are standing where they stood at the time of the Commission but the Government are going backward instead of forward. In order that the Government may be in a position to deal with the coalowners I beg to move the Amendment.

Mr. WHITELEY: I beg to second the Amendment.
I rise to second this Amendment for the third time because I believe this Regulation is one which ought to be put into full operation in a dispute such as that through which we are passing. The Secretary for Mines on a previous occasion was afraid that we were trying to use this Amendment to bring about the immediate naitonalisation of the coal mines. If this Regulation is examined in the altered form which we propose, nobody can say that it embodies what we believe to be the principles of nationalisation. I think the Secretary for Mines took up that attitude because we said then, as we frankly say now, that the nationalisation of the mines of this country is our ultimate aim, in order to stop disputes of this kind. To us it appears to be the only solution of the present difficulties in a basic industry of this country. But in putting this Regulation into operation in the amended form proposed there is no fear, as was suggested by the Secre-
tary for Mines, that we should have to go into a detailed scheme of compensation.
My hon. Friend has referred to the fact that the mines were taken over by the Government during the War. A state of emergency existed, and it was felt that an industry of this nature should be controlled by the Government of the country. We are in a state of emergency now, otherwise we should not be discussing these Emergency Regulations, and the same principle applies. The Government should take over the mines in the state of emergency that now exists until such time as a reasonable settlement is arrived at. I do not desire that a Tory Government should bring in nationalisation. I do not agree with a Government bringing in legislation involving a principle with which they disagree. Such legislation should be brought in and put into operation by those who believe in it. This Regulation should, in my opinion, be strengthened by the adoption of the Amendment. Emergency Regulations ought not to be brought in for the purpose of dealing with one section of the community. The Home Secretary has the power, and uses it, to prevent mass meetings and processions and demonstrations of any kind where he thinks, on the advice of the police, they should be stopped, and any Emergency Regulations should be brought into operation to prevent such instances as have occurred of the coalowners transferring their economic league into certain districts and issuing their poisonous gas in order to create disaffection amongst the miners.
The Government should see that this particular kind of legislation is used without any bias at all. Up to the moment, it has been used with a distinct bias against the workers, whilst the owners have created more disaffection by their particular methods than ever the miners have been capable of creating. The Secretary for Mines on the last, occasion referred to the fact that the Government had been able to do much under these Regulations. He said that they had been able to commandeer coal, fix prices, and do many other things, and he laid particular stress on the fact that they had been instrumental in keeping down the price of coal.
When we were dealing with a supplementary Estimate of £3,000,000 to meet the purchase of foreign coal, he stated that the consumers of this country were being charged £3 12s. 9d. per ton for coal, and one can assume that that figure may be exceeded, if it has not already been exceeded, in the coming weeks. If this Amendment was accepted you would have a million miners of this country ready and willing to produce coal for the consumers at half that amount. I do not know whether the Secretary for Mines heard the figures we were paying for American coal given by the hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. G. H. Hall). They were astounding when compared with the prices at which we were selling our export coal before the stoppage. All these things should be taken into consideration. if the Government desire to assist the country—we are not asking them to assist the miners—if they desire the country to get back to something like normal conditions, then they should take the straight line, prevent the mineowners holding a pistol at the head of everybody in the country, and put the Regulation amended in this way into operation in order to bring the dispute to a speedy end.

Mr. G. THORNE: I only venture to intervene in this discussion for two or three minutes to explain my own position in regard to the, Amendment. When the same Amendment came before the House a month ago, I felt unable to vote for it. I do not, as at present advised, believe in the nationalisation of the mines, and, on general lines, I was unable to give it my support. I took the view expressed by the Commissioners appointed by the Government. But I regard the situation as having been entirely changed within the last few days. I never remember anything so humiliating in the experience of this Parliament as the attitude of the Prime Minister yesterday, himself declaring the action of the mineowners to be absolutely stupid, and yet suggesting to the House absolute impotence in the face of it. That is not a right position for the Prime Minister of this country to take; it is not a right position for the Government of this country to take. The only hope for progress, the only hope for the continuance of law abidance in this country, is an evidence from the Government of even-handed justice.
What are these Regulations for? Are they necessary at all? I do not believe they are. I have never voted for them. I have always voted against them, and with law-abiding people such as ours, they are an insult to our working people. Consequently, I have never voted for them. But the Government think them necessary, and the Amendment now before the House is to make operative a particular Regulation which the Government themselves have introduced. What is it there for if it is not to be used? That is the question I ask the Government. I am unhappy at what looks to me to be an attempt to bring the miners to heel. If anyone is to be brought to heel, why not bring the coalowners of the country to heel just as much as the miners? The Government have got to exercise some influence. They tell us they are impotent. They are not. They have the power in these Regulations, and if the Government use them against the miners, why not use them against the mineowners? As a Liberal, I fully recognise the rights of property, but I am more anxious about the rights of flesh and blood, and when I see working men in my own district, miners and joiners' wives and children, exposed to these conditions because the pits are closed, while I want to be fair to the mineowners I must be equally fair to the miners. The only chance is to force this upon the Government, to use this opportunity, and tell them they must do it, and turn "may" into "shall." I mean to vote for the Amendment.

The SECRETARY for MINES (Colonel Lane Fox): I should like to congratulate the two hon. Members who have moved and seconded the Amendment on their perseverance and consistency. This is the third time they have moved this Amendment, and much as I should like to meet two much respected Members of the House, I cannot on this occasion any more than on the two previous occasions agree to the Amendment they propose. I will, us briefly as I can, give a few reasons, some of which have been advanced before, why this Amendment is both ineffective and, if it were effective, would not be of value to the country. The hon. Member who moved the Amendment suggested that it was of great value because it would afford the Prime Minister a real thick stick with which to coerce the coalowners, but the
hon. Member who seconded did not take that view. He said that this was done in the War, but in the War, I should like to remind the House, such control as there was was exercised with the full consent of the coalowners, and no one suggested that it was used as a stick. Obviously, the motives of the two hon. Members are quite different.
They have been immensely supported by the very outspoken announcement made yesterday by the right hon. Member for yesterday Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) that he, for some reason which he did not explain, had changed his views very considerably in this matter and was now prepared to take over State management of the pits in the way which hon. Members opposite suggest in this Amendment. The hon. Member who moved the Amendment said that he felt very much strengthened by that support of the right hon. Gentleman and the whole of the united Liberal party. If that were so, I should, indeed, congratulate him, because that certainly would be a circumstance to which we are very unaccustomed in this House. However, as far as the Liberal party are present on this occasion, one half of them has spoken, and has shown that one half of the Liberal party in the House is prepared to follow its leader on a matter of great importance. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about your own party?"] We shall see, but I can only say that, if the whole of the Liberal party has suddenly changed its view and is prepared to put faith, even in a time of emergency, in State maintenance and management of the pits, then indeed we shall see some signs of that combination and co-operation with hon. Members opposite of which we have heard a good deal in the past, but which, in some quarters among the Labour party, is being regularly and constantly repudiated.
I should like to point out, as I have done before, that this Amendment would not have anything like the effect that is claimed for it. The intention of the Regulation was, as I have said on previous occasions, to give opportunities to the Government to control, distribute and regulate the coal that was available, but it was particularly laid down and drafted in a different form from that of the Regulation of 1921. The Regulation of 1921 did give power to the Govern-
ment to take possession of all the mines and works, but that has been expressly excluded from the Regulation as it is drafted now. I would like to point out that hon. Members will see, if they look, that in Sub-head No. (1) of Regulation 14 it is laid down that "The Board of Trade may take possession" of various things, all being on the distributing side of coal—wagons, premises, and coal itself. Then comes a second Sub-head, under which "The Board of Trade may give directions"—thereby distinctly excluding what had been put under the previous sub-heading, and this is the purpose for which the Regulation has been drafted—for the management, production, manufacture, treatment and so on, of coal. Therefore, the hon. Member will see that by merely altering the word "may" to "shall" he will not give the Government the power, as he thinks, of taking over all the pits in the country and running them as he suggests, but he would merely make it obligatory on the Government—

Mr. BATEY: If the right. hon. Gentleman will turn to page 13, he will see that Sub-head No. (2) reads
The Board of Trade may give directions.…as to the production. … of any coal.
What does he make of that?

Colonel LANE FOX: The hon. Member is repeating exactly what I have just tried to say. I have pointed out that Sub-head (2) gives to the Board of Trade power to give directions in these matters, but not to take possession, and that is the distinction—and it is an intended difference—between the first and second halves of this Regulation.

Mr. BATEY: The first half takes possession, and the second gives directions.

Colonel LANE FOX: The hon. Member may take it from me that in no Court of Law would the Government receive that power under this Regulation. Therefore, if he will allow me to say so, his Amendment is not only one that could not with advantage be carried out by the Government, but the actual Amendment itself does not effect the purpose he thinks it does. I would like
to say quite frankly, however, that this Government, and, I venture to think, any Government that really has the welfare of the country at heart, would never, even if the hon. Gentleman could do what he wishes by the change he suggests, carry out the proposition he desires to carry out. It is our confirmed and convinced opinion that it would not be to the advantage of the country that the State should try to run the pits of the country, even at this time of emergency, and whatever arguments may be used, that conviction is founded on very sound common-sense.
As regards the question, which the seconder of the Amendment raised, as to the control of the supply and price of coal during the emergency, I want to say that on a previous occasion somebody interrupted me when I was speaking, and suggested that nothing had been done by this Regulation. I should like to say that the country really does not realise what it owes to the immense amount of hard and constant work which is being done by Committees all over the country in the regulating of supplies which it is being found possible to distribute throughout the country. [An HON. MEMBER: "At £4 a ton!"] There is no doubt that a great many people have suffered inconvenience from the short supplies of coal, but the fact that we have been able—I take no credit myself, but that these Committees have been able—to secure distribution in the way in which they have done, without a greater loss and greater suffering to the community, is really deserving of a great deal of gratitude.
That, of course, is entirely irrespective of the question of price, and as regards that I will say that hon. Members must realise that, as long as we are in the position of having to get a very large proportion of our coal from foreign countries, coming from a great distance, with very expensive freights, and with all the difficulties of getting it into this country, it is impossible to expect that the price can approximate to anything like the price at which we could produce it ourselves in this country. As I said at Question Time to-day, if hon. Members opposite will do their utmost to promote a peaceful settlement of this dispute, they will do more to decrease the price of coal and to relieve the necessi-
ties of the public than anything else that they can do at the present time. One hon. Member said that we have bought foreign coal in order to starve ale miners. My reply to that is that we have had to buy foreign coal in order to keep the public fed and warmed. We have done so, and we are not in the least ashamed of having done so, and if hon. Members opposite will do something to relieve the situation in the way I have suggested they will be doing a greater service to the country than by moving Amendments like the one now before the House.

Mr. SCRYMGEOUR: I would like to quote one who cannot be said to be prejudiced in favour of the men, and who certainly is one who can speak from an expert point of view, as to what might be done, and as to what he holds should be done, by the Government. I refer to Mr. Hugh Wood, member of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers, who, in a special article in the "Coal and Iron Trades Review," recently put very important facts and figures bearing upon the necessity of intervention by the Government on the basis of a loan at a very low rate of interest, and what he brings out is that we are 100 years behind the times in the working of these mines. He says that if this step were taken by the Government, good wages for the men and good profits for the mineowners could be secured. He points out that in our own country, we produce as much as 250,000,000 tons per annum, while Germany, which only produces, I think, 130,000,000 tons, has a magnificent system of conveyors. She has as many as 25,000, whereas we in this country have only 2,500. His contention is that we require 50,000 conveyors, which, in themselves, would involve a benefit of as much as 2s. a ton. Then, in regard to the screening and grading of the coal, he tells us, from the experience of his own firm in specially dealing with these things, and going on with improvements, that in Northumberland a very short time ago as much as £10,000 was expended to produce screening and grading plant, and in five months that capital expenditure was cleared off. He has also pointed out that in regard to roads, huts and things of that sort we ought to have a complete rectification. He deals with electrification of the trans-
port system, and so on, and shows us that as much as 5s. 6d. a ton can be secured by these steps, giving to the mineowners and to the workers themselves thoroughly satisfactory results.
In face of such facts and figures, coming from such a quarter, it is appalling that a Government, which particularly claims to be a business Government, and to look after what we call business, should neglect these things, though in some parts of the country these results are being produced. We know that the Commission made a special recommendation about the reorganisation of the industry, and it is a very astounding fact that the mineowners have absolutely refused to face that particular issue. On a previous occasion in this House, I said I believed that where that point was being reached in the early part of the negotiations, it was possible to secure a reduction in the wages if there were a guarantee to proceed with the actual recommendations as to reorganisation, and that all this serious trouble could have been avoided. It was very striking to find the Chancellor of the Exchequer making so pronounced a statement to the mineowners, that if they were not going to face the arrangement on a national basis then the Government themselves would have to step in. The situation is one in which the Government are practically tied neck and heel in the mineowners' interests.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. Gentleman is going into the whole question of the coal dispute.

Mr. SCRYMGEOUR: Perhaps I am taking rather more latitude than I should take. My special reason for urging this—and I agree with the hon. Member who spoke from the Liberal Benches—is that the situation is now more intensified. I certainly do submit, in face of such evidence, that to refuse action on such lines as we have presented to-night goes further to prove, even from the business standpoint, the Government's failure in this matter.

Mr. HARDIE: The Government, we are told, bought foreign coal, and sold it to the distributors here. Did they then fix the price at which the coal was to be sold so as to prevent profiteering?

Colonel LANE FOX: We got an undertaking from the merchants to whom we sold the coal for distribution that they would not add to the cost price more than the pre-stoppage margin, allowing also for the cost of extra screening, and, as the hon. Gentleman knows, a great deal more screening is required.

Mr. HARDIE: Fifty per cent. more.

Colonel LANE FOX: Obviously, the residue could not be sold at the same price as the original.

Mr. HARDIE: Did you fix the price? That is what I want to know.

Colonel LANE FOX: We fixed the price in this way. We said that they were not to sell at more than the cost price, plus the pre-stoppage margin for profits and cost of handling, and, in addition, snaking allowance for the cost for the extra screening required.

Question put "That those words be there added."

The House divided: Ayes, 97; Noes, 201.

Division No. 439.]
AYES.
[8.57 p.m.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Hirst, G. H.
Sitch, Charles H.


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Siesser, Sir Henry H.


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)
Smillie, Robert


Batey, Joseph
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)


Bondfield, Margaret
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Snell, Harry


Bromfield, William
Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)


Cape, Thomas
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Stamford, T. W.


Clowes, S.
Kelly, W. T.
Stephen, Campbell


Cluse, W. S.
Kennedy, T.
Sullivan, J.


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Lansbury, George
Sutton, J. E.


Connolly, M.
Lawson, John James
Taylor, R. A.


Dalton, Hugh
Lee, F.
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Lindley, F. W.
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Lowth, T.
Thurtle, Ernest


Day, Colonel Harry
Lunn, William
Tinker, John Joseph


Dennison, R.
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)
Varley, Frank B.


Duncan, C.
March, S.
Viant, S. P.


Dunnico, H.
Montague, Frederick
Wallhead, Richard C.


Gillett, George M.
Murnin, H.
Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen


Gosling, Harry
Naylor, T. E.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Oliver, George Harold
Watts- Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)
Palin, John Henry
Westwood, J.


Greenall, T.
Ponsonby, Arthur
Whiteley, W.


Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Potts, John S.
Wilson, C. H (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Purcell, A. A.
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Windsor, Walter


Groves, T.
Ritson, J.
Wright, W.


Grundy, T. W.
Saklatvala, Shapurji
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)
Scrymgeour, E.



Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
Scurr, John
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Hayes.


Hardie, George D.
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis



Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)



NOES.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Brocklebank, C. E. R.
Dalziel, Sir Davison


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.
Davies, Dr. Vernon


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)
Buckingham, Sir H.
Dawson, Sir Philip


Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)
Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan
Dixey, A. C.


Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)
Burman, J. B
Edmondson, Major A. J.


Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.
Burton, Colonel H. W.
Ellis, R. G.


Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.
Butt, Sir Alfred
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)


Atholl, Duchess of
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Campbell, E. T.
Fairfax, Captain J. G.


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Cassels, J. D.
Fenby, T. D.


Banks, Reginald Mitchell
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt, R. (Prtsmth. S.)
Fermoy, Lord


Barclay-Harvey, C. M.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Fielden, E. B.


Barnett, Major Sir Richard
Chapman, Sir S.
Finburgh, S.


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Christie, J. A.
Ford, Sir P. J.


Berry, Sir George
Clayton, G. C.
Forestier-Walker, Sir L.


Betterton, Henry B.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Foster, Sir Harry S.


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Colfox, Major William Phillips
Frece, Sir Walter de


Blades, Sir George Rowland
Cope, Major William
Galbraith, J. F. W.


Blundell, F. N.
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Ganzoni, Sir John


Boothby, R. J. G.
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Gates, Percy


Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.
Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton


Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Goff, Sir Park


Bridgman, Rt. Hon, William Clive
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert
Gower, Sir Robert


Briggs, J. Harold
Dalkeith, Earl of
Grace, John


Graham, Frederick F. (Cumbld., N)
Lynn, Sir R. J.
Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)


Grotrian, H. Brent
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Ropner, Major L.


Gunston, Captain D. W.
MacDonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Macintyre, Ian
Rye, F. G.


Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
MacRobert, Alexander M.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Harrison, G. J. C.
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)


Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Sandeman, A. Stewart


Haslam, Henry C.
Malone, Major P. B.
Sanders, Sir Robert A.


Hawke, John Anthony
Mason, Lieut.-Colonel Glyn K.
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Meller, R. J.
Shepperson, E. W.


Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)
Merriman, F. B.
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon


Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)


Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Smith-Carington, Neville W.


Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)
Monsell, Eyres, Corn. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Smithers, Waldron


Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Moore, Sir Newton J.
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)


Holland, Sir Arthur
Morden, Colonel Walter Grant
Storry-Deans, R.


Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Moreing, Captain A. H.
Streatfeild, Captain S. R.


Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Murchison, C. K.
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.


Hopkins, J. W. W.
Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph
Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)


Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Nuttall, Ellis
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid


Hore-Belisha, Leslie
Oakley, T.
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.


Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Tasker, Major R. Inigo


Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)


Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. Willliam
Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-


Hume, Sir G. H.
Owen, Major G.
Tinne, J. A.


Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Hurd, Percy A.
Perring, Sir William George
Waddington, R.


Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. F. S.
Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.


Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Waterhouse, Captain Charles


Jacob, A. E.
Philipson, Mabel
Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)


James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Pilcher, G.
Watts, Dr. T.


Jephcott, A. R.
Pilditch, Sir Philip
Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)


Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Power, Sir John Cecil
Winby, Colonel L. P.


Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William
Price, Major C. W. M.
Wise, Sir Fredric


Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Radford, E. A.
Withers, John James


Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Raine, W.
Womersley, W. J.


Kindersley, Major G. M.
Ramsden, E.
Worthington-Evans. Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Lane Fox, Col.- Rt. Hon. George R.
Rawson, Sir Cooper
Wragg, Herbert


Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Remnant, Sir James
Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.


Loder, J. de V.
Rentoul, G. S.



Lougher, L.
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Captain Viscount Curzon and Captain Lord Stanley.

Question put,
That the Regulations made by His Majesty in Council under the Emergency Powers Act, 1920, by Order dated the 22nd

day of September, 1926, shall continue in force, subject, however, to the provisions of Sections 2 (4) of the said Act."

The House divided: Ayes, 196; Noes, 99.

Division No. 440.]
AYES.
[9.5 p.m.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Fermoy, Lord


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.
Campbell, E. T.
Fielden, E. B.


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)
Cassels, J. D.
Finburgh, S.


Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)
Ford, Sir P. J.


Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Forestier-Walker, Sir L.


Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.
Chapman, Sir S.
Foster, Sir Harry S


Atholl, Duchess of
Christie, J. A.
Frece, Sir Walter de


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Clayton, G. C.
Galbraith, J. F. W.


Banks, Reginald Mitchell
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Ganzoni, Sir John


Barclay-Harvey, C. M.
Colfox, Major William Phillips
Gates, Percy


Barnett, Major Sir Richard
Cope, Major William
Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Goff, Sir Park


Berry, Sir George
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Gower, Sir Robert


Betterton, Henry B.
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
Grace, John


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.
Graham, Frederick F. (Cumbld., N.)


Blades, Sir George Rowland
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Grotrian, H. Brent


Blundell, F. N.
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert
Gunston, Captain D. W.


Boothby, R. J. G.
Dalkeith, Earl of
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.


Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Dalziel, Sir Davison
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)


Bowater, Colonel Sir T. Vansittart
Davies, Dr. Vernon
Harrison, G. J. C.


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Dawson, Sir Phillip
Harvey, G (Lambeth, Kennington)


Briggs, J. Harold
Dixey, A. C.
Haslam, Henry C.


Brocklebank, C. E. R.
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Hawke, John Anthony


Broun-Lindsay, Major H.
Ellis, R. G.
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.


Buckingham, Sir H.
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s M.)
Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)


Burgoyne, Lieut-Colonel Sir Alan
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)


Burman, J. B.
Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.


Burton, Colonel H. W.
Fenby, T. D.
Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)


Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Meller, R. J.
Sandeman, A. Stewart


Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Merriman, F. B.
Sanders, Sir Robert A.


Holland, Sir Arthur
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Shepperson, E. W.


Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon


Hopkins, J. W. W.
Moore, Sir Newton J.
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)


Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Smith-Carington, Neville W.


Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Morden, Colonel Walter Grant
Smithers, Waldron


Hore-Belisha, Leslie
Moreing, Captain A. H.
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.
Murchison, C. K.
Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)


Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Storry-Deans, R.


Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)
Nuttall, Ellis
Streatfeild, Captain S. R.


Hume, Sir G. H.
Oakley, T.
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.


Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)


Hurd, Percy A.
Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid


Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S.
Owen, Major G.
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.


Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Tasker, Major R. Inigo


Jacob, A. E.
Perring, Sir William George
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)


James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-


Jephcott, A. R.
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Tinne, J. A.


Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Philipson, Mabel
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William
Pilcher, G.
Waddington, R.


Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Power, Sir John Cecil
Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.


Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Price, Major C. W. M.
Waterhouse, Captain Charles


Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Radford, E. A.
Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)


Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Raine, W.
Watts, Dr. T.


Loder, J. de V.
Ramsden, E.
Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)


Lougher, L.
Rawson, Sir Cooper
Winby, Colonel L. P.


Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Remnant, Sir James
Wise, Sir Fredric


Lynn, Sir Robert J.
Rentoul, G. S.
Withers, John James


Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Womersley, W. J.


MacDonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Macintyre, Ian
Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.


MacRobert, Alexander M.
Ropner, Major L.



Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Rye, F. G.
Captain Viscount Curzon and


Malone, Major P. B.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Captain Lord Stanley.


Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)



NOES.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Hardie, George D.
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Sitch, Charles H.


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Hirst, G. H.
Slesser, Sir Henry H.


Batey, Joseph
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Smillie, Robert


Bondfield, Margaret
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)
Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)


Briant, Frank
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Snell, Harry


Bromfield, William
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)
Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)


Buchanan, G.
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Stamford, T. W.


Cape, Thomas
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Stephen, Campbell


Clowes, S.
Kelly, W. T.
Sullivan, J.


Cluse, W. S.
Kennedy, T.
Sutton, J. E.


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Lansbury, George
Taylor, R. A.


Connolly, M.
Lawson, John James
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Dalton, Hugh
Lee, F.
Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Lindley, F. W.
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Lowth, T.
Thurtle, Ernest


Day, Colonel Harry
Lunn, William
Tinker, John Joseph


Dennison, R.
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)
Varley, Frank B.


Duncan, C.
March, S.
Viant, S. P.


Dunnico, H.
Montague, Frederick
Wallhead, Richard C.


Gillett, George M.
Murnin, H.
Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen


Gosling, Harry
Naylor, T. E.
Watson, W. M. (Dumfermline)


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Oliver, George Harold
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)
Palin, John Henry
Westwood, J.


Greenall, T.
Ponsonby, Arthur
Whiteley, W.


Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Potts, John S.
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Purcell, A. A.
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Windsor, Walter


Groves, T.
Ritson, J.
Wright, W.


Grundy, T. W.
Saklatvala, Shapurji
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)
Scurr, John



Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Hayes.

Resolved,
That the Regulations made by His Majesty in Council under the Emergency
Powers Act, 1920, by Order dated the 22nd day of September, 1926, shall continue in force, subject, however, to the provisions of Section 2 (4) of the said Act.

Orders of the Day — ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE (AUTUMN).

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn until Tuesday, 9th November."—[Commander Eyres Monsell.]

Mr. HARTSHORN: When the Motion which has just been moved is passed, the door of the central authority will be closed for a month, and unless something be done I suppose the great industrial crisis with which we have been faced—

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: On such a Motion as that which is now before the

House, the only argument which can be used is as to what day the House will adjourn. I have an idea that the right hon. Gentleman wishes to discuss the general question. I understand that when this Motion has been disposed of, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury intends to move, "That this House do now adjourn," and that will afford an opportunity for a general discussion.

Question put.

The House divided: Ayes, 195; Noes, 105.

Division No. 441.]
AYES.
[9.15 p.m.


Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Foster, Sir Harry S.
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-


Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.
Fraser, Captain Ian
Makins, Brigadier-General E.


Alexander, E. E. (Leyton)
Frece, Sir Walter de
Malone, Major P. B.


Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)
Galbraith, J. F. W.
Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.


Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)
Ganzoni, Sir John
Meller, R. J.


Astbury, Lieut-Commander F W.
Gates, Percy
Merriman, F. B.


Atholl, Duchess of
Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)


Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley
Goff, Sir Park
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)


Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Gower, Sir Robert
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.


Banks, Reginald Mitchell
Grace, John
Moore, Sir Newton J.


Barclay-Harvey, C. M.
Graham, Frederick F. (Cumbld., N.)
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.


Barnett, Major Sir Richard
Grotrian, H. Brent
Morden, Colonel Walter Grant


Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)
Gunston, Captain D. W.
Moreing, Captain A. H.


Berry, Sir George
Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Murchison, C. K.


Betterton, Henry B.
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph


Birchall, Major J. Dearman
Harrison, G. J. C.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)


Blades, Sir George Rowland
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Nuttall, Ellis


Blundell, F. N.
Haslam, Henry C.
Oakley, T.


Boothby, R. J. G.
Hawke, John Anthony
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)


Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Oman, Sir Charles William C.


Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart
Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William


Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Owen, Major G.


Briggs, J. Harold
Heneage, Lieut-Colonel Arthur P.
Perkins, Colonel E. K.


Brocklebank, C. E. R.
Herbert, S. (York, N.R., Scar. & Wh'by)
Perring, Sir William George


Broun-Lindsay, Major H.
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)


Buckingham, Sir H.
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)


Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan
Holland, Sir Arthur
Phillipson, Mabel


Burman, J. B.
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Pilcher, G.


Burton, Colonel H. W.
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Power, Sir John Cecil


Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Hopkins, J. W. W.
Price, Major C. W. M.


Campbell, E. T.
Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)
Radford, E. A.


Cassels, J. D.
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Raine, W.


Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.)
Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N.
Ramsden, E.


Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)
Rawson, Sir Cooper


Chapman, Sir S.
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)
Rentoul, G. S.


Christie, J. A.
Hume, Sir G. H.
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.


Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer
Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)


Clayton, G. C.
Hurd, Percy A.
Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)


Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)
Ropner, Major L.


Colfox, Major William Phillips
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. F. S.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)


Cope, Major William
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Rye, F. G.


Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)
Jacob, A. E.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)


Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)


Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)
Jephcott, A. R.
Sandeman, A. Stewart


Cunliffe, Sir Herbert
Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)
Sanders, Sir Robert A.


Dalkeith, Earl of
Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William
Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)


Davies, Dr. Vernon
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Shepperson, E. W.


Dawson, Sir Phillip
Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon


Dixey, A. C.
Kindersley, Major Guy M.
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)


Edmondson, Major A. J.
Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Smith-Carington, Neville W.


Ellis, R. G.
Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Phillip
Smithers, Waldron


Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)
Loder, J. de V.
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)


Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Lougher, L.
Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F.(Will'sden, E.)


Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Storry-Deans, R.


Fermoy, Lord
Lynn, Sir R. J
Streatfeild, Captain S. R.


Fielden, E. B.
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.


Finburgh, S.
Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)


Ford, Sir P. J.
Macintyre, Ian
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser


Forestier-Walker, Sir L.
MacRobert, Alexander M.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid


Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Withers, John James


Tasker, Major R. Inigo
Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Womersley, W. J.


Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)
Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.


Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Watts, Dr. T.
Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.


Tinne, J. A.
Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)



Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Winby, Colonel L. P.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—


Waddington, R.
Wise, Sir Fredric
Captain Viscount Curzon and




Captain Lord Stanley.


NOES.


Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Hardie, George D.
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)


Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Sitch, Charles H.


Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)
Hirst, G. H.
Slesser, Sir Henry H.


Batey, Joseph
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Smillie, Robert


Bondfield, Margaret
Hore-Belisha, Leslie
Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)


Briant, Frank
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)
Snell, Harry


Bromfield, William
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip


Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)


Buchanan, G.
Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)
Stamford, T. W.


Cape, Thomas
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Stephen, Campbell


Clowes, S.
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Sullivan, J.


Cluse, W. S.
Kelly, W. T.
Sutton, J. E.


Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Kennedy, T.
Taylor, R. A.


Connolly, M.
Lansbury, George
Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)


Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Lawson, John James
Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro., W.)


Dalton, Hugh
Lee, F.
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)


Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Lindley, F. W.
Thurtle, Ernest


Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)
Lowth, T.
Tinker, John Joseph


Day, Colonel Harry
Lunn, William
Varley, Frank B.


Dennison, R.
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)
Viant, S. P.


Duncan, C.
March, S.
Wallhead, Richard C.


Dunnico, H.
Montague, Frederick
Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen


Fenby, T. D.
Murnin, H.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)


Gillett, George M.
Naylor, T. E.
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)


Gosling, Harry
Oliver, George Harold
Westwood, J.


Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Palin, John Henry
Whiteley, W.


Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)
Ponsonby, Arthur
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)


Greenall, T.
Potts, John S.
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)


Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Purcell, A. A.
Windsor, Walter


Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Wright, W.


Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Ritson, J.
Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)


Groves, T.
Saklatvala, Shapurji



Grundy, T. W.
Scrymgeour, E.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—


Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.)
Scurr, John
Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Hayes.


Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)



Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis



Question put, and agreed to.

Orders of the Day — COAL TRADE DISPUTE.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Commander Eyres Monsell.]

Mr. HARTSHORN: I was saying, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that, when the House has passed the Motion that you have submitted from the Chair, its doors will be closed for a month, and, unless something is done to bring to an end the industrial crisis through which we are passing, I suppose it will drag its weary and tedious journey through another month, and we shall find ourselves here a month hence discussing the matter in the same way as we have for the last five months. I hope I shall be expressing the sentiments of every Member in this House, regardless of the party to which he belongs, when I say that we ought not to allow Parliament to adjourn without, at least, making a special effort to bring this great dispute to an end.
[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear"!] The drain upon our national resources is appalling; upon that we are all agreed. The future resources of the nation are being mortgaged to-day as never before in peace time; debts are being piled up in the homes of Britain which will be a nightmare to millions for years. In these circumstances, it seems to me to be the duty of Parliament to do everything that is possible to bring such a disastrous state of affairs to an end at the earliest possible moment.
None of us desire to have a patched-up peace; we do not want a settlement of this dispute that will leave us with the threat of a repetition of it next year or the year after. We are all anxious that a settlement should be effected which will lay the basis for future peace and future prosperity, not only in the mining industry, but in the nation as a whole. I want the House to consider to-night whether or not we have before us any proposals which, when properly considered
and understood, do or do not provide a basis for such a settlement. Members of this House, coalowners, and the Press generally have been declaring for some considerable time past that what is needed in the mining industry is an economic settlement, with that we all agree. As to what constitutes a proper definition of the words "economic settlement," there may be some difference of opinion. I propose to-night to refer to that, and deal with that expression in its ordinary acceptation, meaning nothing more or less than this: Have we proposals which, if acted upon, would enable the mines of this country to pay and be a profitable business? That is the only meaning I propose to attach to-night to that expression.
Before getting on to that, I would like to ask the House to consider that whenever a resumption of work takes place in the mining industry, for the first three or four months the position would be very different from what it had been before the stoppage. Industries in this country do not live from day to day. They all accumulate stocks of coal for carrying on their business. Those stocks have been exhausted. They have to be replenished. Whenever work is resumed the demand for coal will certainly be abnormal for some time, and, whether we like it or not, whatever is the nature of the settlement, the immediate result of that abnormal demand for coal will be a rise in the price throughout the whole of this country. We had a similar experience in 1921. After a three months' stoppage, prices for the first three or four months were certainly much above what, they had been before. Notwithstanding the fact of the reopening of the collieries, the cost of production was substantially higher after the stoppage than before. The profits, even in the export districts, for some months were as high as 4s. or 5s. a ton. I want the House to consider and keep in mind that fact. It is not a question whether it is a good thing to have high price; it is a simple fact that for some months that will be the result of this stoppage and of the demands which will follow. It is only necessary for hon. Members connected with business in this country to-day to consult their accounts and compare the prices they are paying for such coal as is being produced with the prices they paid
for the same coal before the stoppage took place, and they will realise that what I am saying is certainly likely to be the result for some months at least after this stoppage comes to an end.
In the light of those statements, I want the House to consider the effect that the proposals which have already been made by the miners would have upon the industry. I would emphasise the fact that those proposals are two-fold in character. First of all, they propose that an immediate resumption of work should take place in all the mines of the country on the basis of a 10 per cent. reduction in wages. That is a proposal for an immediate resumption of work. It is of a temporary character. On a return to work on that basis they propose that a committee or tribunal should be set up having authority to arbitrate and determine the terms and provisions of an agreement based upon the general provisions of the Coal Commission's Report. I would like the House to believe me when I say that, the men who made those proposals have not done lightly. They have undertaken a great responsibility. They have done it with great reluctance. It will not be popular. There will be no halos for anybody if these proposals are accepted and embodied in an agreement. There is no doubt about this at all, that the Miners' National Executive made those proposals believing that if they made a real genuine effort to meet the situation with which they are faced in the mining industry that that attempt on their part would be reciprocated by the coalowners and the Government, and that not only they but everybody else would be equally anxious to do all in their power to bring about a satisfactory settlement.
I want to say that it is not what believe would be the proper settlement in this industry; it is not what the Miners' National Executive think should be the lines along which the settlement should proceed; but they realise we are up against conflicting interests, that there are such diversities of opinion with regard to this matter, such strong feelings are held, and they have come to the conclusion that somebody must make a move. They have made this move, and, as far as I am concerned, I am prepared to associate myself wholeheartedly in this, and share in any odium which may
attach to them if any settlement should be effected on those lines. What I would like to convey to the House is that if those proposals are accepted the industry can be worked at a profit from the commencement during the temporary period; that while they are working during that temporary period there will be ample opportunity for the national authority to be set up to investigate any facts or arguments that may be put forward by the coalowners before they come to their decision as to the provisions of the national agreement.
When speaking on this last night, I referred to the fact that if we take the position we found in the industry prior to the adoption of the subsidy, when the mining industry was working under normal conditions we had this position. In Scotland there was a loss of 9d. per ton, in Northumberland of 1s. 3d., in Durham of 9d., and in South Wales of 10d. In Yorkshire there was a profit of about 4d., in Notts and Derby a profit of 11d., in Warwickshire, Leicester, and Cannock Chase a profit of 1s. 4d., in Lancashire and North Stafford a loss of 3d. and in the other districts, such as Bristol, Somerset, Kent, and North Wales, which are lumped together in the returns, there was a loss of 8d. If you take the labour losts at that time, a 10 per cent. reduction varies from 1s. 1d. a ton in Northumberland to 1s. 5d. in South Wales and 1s. 6d. in Lancashire, and if you take each of these coalfields and take the position which we found prior to the subsidy, when everything was normal, the losses could be wiped out and there would be a profit in each of the coalfields varying from 5d. in Scotland and Durham, 7d. in South Wales, 1s. 6d. in Yorkshire, 2s. 1d. in Notts and Derby, 2s. 6d. in Warwick, ls. 3d. in Lancashire, and 9d. in the other districts.
Assuming the prices prevailing in the first half of last year, before the subsidy was put on; if this 10 per cent. reduction were made, the whole of the coalfields of Britain would be converted from losing concerns into profitable businesses—all with the exception of Northumberland, on which there would still be a loss of 2d. a ton. That is all on the assumption that prices during the first couple of months would be as low as they were in
July of last year. We all know that that will not be the case, and it is certain that as far as that temporary period is concerned, the proposals which have been made provide an economic settlement for that temporary period. Again, using that phrase "economic settlement" in the narrow sense of making it a profitable paying business, and for that period therefore suggestions have been made which will meet the demand that has been put forward for many months past that we shall have an economic settlement. If we get the men back to work on that basis and if a Tribunal is set up for the purpose of making a permanent settlement, or one for a period to be agreed upon, the mines will not be worked at a loss. There is no subsidy in this. After the three months' stoppage in 1921 the men resumed work on this condition, that during the first three months the coalowners would throw all the profits into the wages account and help wages by themselves surrendering their profits and the profits of 4s. and 5s. a ton which were realised in the first, second and third months were added to the men's wages on the ascertainment in the months that preceded. There is no suggestion of anything of that kind in this proposal. Here you have a set of proposals made by men who believe the miners are not overpaid but are underpaid, but who after a very prolonged struggle realise that something has to be done if this disastrous stoppage is to be brought to an end.
When the Prime Minister spoke yesterday, he only gave two reasons why the Government did not accept these proposals. He said there were two difficulties about them. One is that there is no question here of considering in any war the question of hours. The second is that many agreements have already been made in fact and are working in parts of the country on terms where hours are concerned. What does it matter whether hours are considered or not in a temporary arrangement which provides an economic basis for carrying on the industry, as long as you have proposals which will make it a profitable business? Why quibble about that as a basis for resuming work immediately and all over the country? With reference to the second point, about the other areas, look at it for a minute. If you take
Notts, Derby, Warwickshire, Leicester, Cannock Chase and North Stafford, there are about 220,000 men employed in that area, and taking the figures as they appear in the Press at their face value—I do not know whether they are correct or not—70,000 men are said to be back in those mines. [Interruption.] I do not want to quibble about trivialities. I merely say you have 70,000 out of 220,000. Two-thirds of the men even in those areas are not working. They are still unemployed. They are still resisting the terms which have been accepted by some of the others, and let it not be forgotten that those men who have gone back to work have gone because sheer starvation has driven them.
But I want to look at the economic position of those coalfields. Before there was any subsidy put on, with the seven-hours day, with a 33⅓ per cent. minimum, without any assistance from outside, Warwick, Leicester and Cannock Chase were making 1s. 4d. profit on every ton of coal that was being raised, and if they got this concession it would place them in the position, even on the prices prevailing last July, of making 2s. 6d. a ton. What earthly reason can there be for suggesting that the owners in that area should be allowed to hang up this stoppage? I hope the House will try to face the facts impartially and without bias. I am trying to do it myself, and after all we are Britons, and the miners are Britons, and it is simply because we are Britons that we are fighters. But there is one thing to be said. The miners will fight in resistance of what they regard as unjust terms, but no one can charge them with not carrying out an agreement when they make it. They have offered terms which, if accepted and embodied in an agreement, will be acted upon. They will be carried out, notwithstanding the fact that they think they ought to have more favourable terms than those they have offered. The same thing applies in respect of Notts and Derby. For the same period they were paying 11d. a ton without any assistance, without any increased hours, and without any subsidy, and now, and during this temporary period, they would certainly be having higher prices than when they were making these profits. I say the proposals which have been submitted are
such as ought to be accepted in the spirit in which they have been submitted as a real, genuine offer on the part of the miners' leaders to meet the situation with which they are faced and to bring this deplorable struggle to an end. They face the facts and look at the position as it is presented to us to-day, and I think the Government must see that they have not given to these proposals that consideration to which they are entitled.
In the exporting districts it is true that we have an artificial situation which has been created by the operation of the subsidy. I have looked into that situation. The Coal Commission told us that our greatest competitor in the foreign market was Germany. I have been looking at our exports and the German exports, and I find that during the seven months before the subsidy was put on there was one penny a ton between our f.o.b. price and the German f.o.b. price. Our price was 19s. 11d. and their price 19s. 10d. We were running neck and neck month by month, with not more than 2d. a month per ton between us in four months out of the seven. Immediately the subsidy was put on our price went down until we found ourselves at the end of the subsidy period with a difference of 3s. 2d. a ton in the price. That was the average over the whole nine months. We did not get any additional business as a result of the reduction in price, and the Germans did not lose any of their business by keeping their price up by 3s. 2d. a ton over ours. All this talk about the export districts being threatened by German competition is not borne out by the actual facts. Those facts are to be inquired into and thrashed out when the national body which is to arrange the permanent settlement gets down to the facts that have to be considered. I sincerely hope that before the House adjourns it will indicate and that the Government will indicate that we have before us a set of proposals which ought to be accepted as a basis for economic settlement of the industry and as a means of bringing this long struggle to an immediate close.

Mr. SMILLIE: I do not intend to enter into the economics of the present dispute. The right hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Hartshorn) has gone fully into that side of the question, and I do
not think it is necessary that anything further should be said in regard to it. When the miner's wife has to go on Saturday night to pay the grocer or any one else and she is 10s. or £1 short of the previous week's wages and she begins to explain to the grocer that economic conditions make it impossible for her to have any more, I feel sure that the grocer will not be satisfied with any explanation that she can give in regard to the economics of the coal industry. That is exactly how a very large number of the womenfolk of the mining community would have found themselves in May last had the reduction proposed by the employers taken place.
I had an opportunity some time ago of congratulating the Prime Minister in this House, wholeheartedly, on the fact that he had seen his way and the Government had seen their way to grant a subsidy to tide over, as they believed, the coal industry during a difficult period. I believe that had that subsidy not been granted by the Government this lock-out would have taken place at that time. The subsidy for the time being tided the nation over that difficult period. When I wholeheartedly congratulated the Prime Minister on his action and on the action of the Government, I pointed out that any subsidy that the Government could give to the mineowners and the miners would be a long way short of the subsidy that the miners had given to the nation during the War. That statement has not been denied. I said that the whole of the subsidy which the Government and the nation gave to the mining industry, not 1d of which went to the miners, would not be 1-20th part of the subsidy which the miners gave to the nation out of their wages, and deliberately handed over to the nation during the War.
It was at the request of the Miners' Federation of Great Britain that the Government fixed the price of coal, at a time when it would have gone up by 30s., £2 or £3 a ton, and their wages would have gone up correspondingly. It was the executive of the Miners' Federation which suggested to the Government that in the interests of the nation, and especially in the interests of the poor of the nation, the price of coal should be fixed at a point which would enable the poor people to secure coal. Therefore, the nation by
granting the subsidy last year was only paying back a little bit of what the miners had given. I do not withdraw the thanks which I gave to the Prime Minister at that time, though to some extent my enthusiasm is rather damped, and it has been reduced a little bit by what has taken place since.
I want to bring the human side of this question before the House. I want to point out that it is not the miners who are the aggresors in this dispute. The miners are locked out not because of any claim they made upon the colliery owners but because of the claim made by the coalowners upon the miners for serious reductions in wages, which at that time, the end of April, was already too low. There was great difficulty at that time in tens of thousands of homes in the mining districts to provide decent food and clothing for the children. The miners were locked out because they would not accept a reduction in wages and because they would hot accept longer hours. They were locked out because they would not be guilty of committing a breach of the law. Had they accepted the longer hours proposed by the employers they would have been guilty of breaking the Seven Hours Law which was then established. This House, instead of condemning them, should congratulate them as law-abiding citizens on having refused to break the law at the behest of the mineowners.
There have been other national disputes in the mining industry in my memory and in the memory of many others this House. I remember at least two important national disputes. We pride ourselves as a nation and we pride ourselves in this House on the fact that the law is equal to all citizens of this country, and that everyone may expect the same treatment under the law—even the royalty owner. At least, I am prepared to give royalty owners more than justice, because I do not propose sending them to gaol for past robberies, but only to press for the restoration of national property. That, however, is only an aside. The miners were agitating in 1912 for a minimum wage. Prior to that time miners in many districts might go down the mines for a full eight hours underground, willing to work, and in many cases working, and then at the end
of the eight hours shift they had earned only 2s. or 3s., and in many cases not a penny. They were men paid by results, and their position was caused, not by any fault of their own, but by circumstances over which they had no control. We claimed that there ought to be a provision that men who presented themselves for work and were willing to work, but had no opportunity and were prevented from earning wages, ought to be guaranteed a minimum wage sufficient to keep them living. The employers refused to accept that position.
We had a strike covering the whole mining industry of the country. Finally, after some weeks, the Government took the matter in hand and brought in a Bill which proposed, as one of its first principles, that there ought to be the recognition of a minimum wage in the mining industry. They did not fix the amount for any of the districts, but laid down the principle. But in the Bill there were to be tribunals set up which would fix what the minimum wage would be in the various districts. The miners were on strike. The Bill was passed. The miners resumed work under that. Bill before the minimum wage was fixed. They resumed work because they had been the aggressors. The were out fighting for something new, and when the Government brought in the Bill and passed it, work was resumed all over the country. That meant that the aggressors returned to work. Since that time other things of a like nature have taken place.
Before the appointment of the Sankey Commission there was an agitation for higher wages amongst the miners. The cost of living had gone up considerably, and the miners wanted higher wages, shorter hours, and other things. They were about to strike in order to enforce those claims when they were invited by the then Prime Minister to allow the matter to come before a Royal Commission. There again the miners were the aggressors. The Royal Commission was appointed. The miners did not know what the figures of the Commission would be, but they returned to work pending the sittings of the Commission. On the same ground of argument those who are the aggressors in the present lock-out, in which over 1,000,000 men are concerned, should be treated as the miners were treated in the two disputes mentioned.
Work would then be resumed on the conditions prevailing before 1st May last. Whatever action the Government care to take to bring about a settlement would, when the decisions were given, be applied. Personally I claim that if the miners of the country were given justice they would resume work on the exact terms which prevailed before the lock-out five months ago. I claim that the miners have as good a right to fair treatment as the owners. They are far more useful members of society than the owners, and quite as respectable in every way, and they ought to get equal treatment with the owners.
10.0 P.M.
I want to give one or two quotations from the speech of a colliery owner as showing what is the position of some of the owners in relation to the Government. One of them, Sir Adam Nimmo, speaking on Friday, 16th July, at a dinner or meeting in his honour, said:
However long this strike may go on, supposing it is conceivable that it should last for another six months, I can say quite frankly from the individual point of view, and also from the point of view of the industry as a whole, that the demands of the workers in the mines cannot be met.
The miners have made no demands. But Sir Adam Nimmo is an educated person, and consequently he can twist words and sentences to make people believe a different tale from the truth. It was the owners who made the demands and not the miners. Sir Adam Nimmo said also:
If the country was of opinion that the mines ought to be nationalised, they would not find the coal owners standing in their way. Seeing that the country had almost unanimously decided that it would not adopt a policy of nationalization, he and his colleagues were entitled to claim public support in seeing that the policy of private enterprise was not interfered with either by Governments or by the Miners' Federation.
That is Sir Adam Nimmo telling the Government that they have no right to interfere with the coalowners in managing their mines as they think fit. That, perhaps, is one reason why up to the present time the Government have not been able to prevail upon the owners to attend a joint conference in order to get a settlement of this deplorable dispute. At that same meeting a, Noble Lord was called upon to move a vote of thanks to a right hon. Member of this House who had spoken, and to Sir Adam
Nimmo. That Noble Lord was Lord Buckmaster, who, in proposing a vote of thanks to Sir Adam Nimmo and Sir Robert Horne, said that he "did not believe that this question could ever be really settled either by limitation of wages or by increased hours. They had to get associated with that some bigger scheme in which they could enlist the interest and the goodwill of the men." With that sentiment I am in hearty agreement. Suppose that the men were able to carry on for a month or six weeks or two months longer, and then finally, from sheer starvation among the men and women and children, work was resumed. We must admit that there is severe privation in the mining districts now. I and others who live near the mines, when we are at home see the womenfolk and children every day, and we know that there is extreme poverty in some cases, and in many cases hunger in the homes. The fight will go on for a considerable time yet unless a reasonable and fair settlement is offered to the miners. I agree with the right hon. Member for Ogmore that the miners have at least put forward a proposal. I want to ask what proposal have the owners put forward up to the present? The miners have put forward a proposal which would mean an immediate reduction in wages, which were too low prior to the lock-out. Surely that might he taken as an olive branch held out to the employers to try and get not merely a settlement for a few months, but one that might last over a number of years, and give the nation an opportunity to get back again and make up some of the losses of the past five or six months.
I was hopeful that such a settlement might be reached, and I believe it was within the power of the Government to bring it about. The miners have offered an immediate and very substantial reduction. Where a man, working very hard at the face, earns 9s. 6d. a day, it is not an easy thing to give up a shilling a day. It is not an easy matter to agree to a proposal like that, and I feel sure that on that basis it ought to be possible to settle this dispute. I had some hope a week ago when the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, in the absence of the Prime Minister, was trying his hand in bringing about reconciliation in the
mining industry, and I believe to a large extent it was the owners who stood in the way. I am convinced that if the owners had been willing during the past three weeks or months to go forward by conciliation to try to secure a settlement and the miners had refused, the Government would have been considering this week some method to try and coerce the miners into accepting the settlement.
If that be so, and if the commonsense of the mineowners fails, then something else ought to be tried to move them to take part in a conference to bring about a reasonable settlement of this dispute. I plead not merely on behalf of the miners but of the hundreds of other workers in the country who are not in any way to blame for the dispute and are not among those locked out. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am glad hon. Members agree with me and have sympathy with those people, for no right hon. Gentleman opposite has greater sympathy with them than I have. I am pleading as strongly for those in other industries as for those in my own industry, and I hope the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Cabinet will take this matter into earnest consideration at the earliest possible moment and try to secure settlement by agreement. It would be a pity if this went on until Parliament meets again. I think it ought to be settled at the earliest possible moment and I believe it is in the hands of the Government to bring about a settlement if they will endeavour to do their best.

The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Baldwin): The speeches to which we have just listened have been delivered by two of the representatives of the benches opposite whom the House is always most pleased to hear, and there is no doubt that if a case has to be made and presented in a way to make it attractive to the House and to earn the sympathy of hon. Members, the party opposite cannot do better than entrust that charge to those two hon. Members. We had a long Debate yesterday, and I think the closing words of the hon. Member for Morpeth (Mr. Smillie) perhaps punctuated an observation which I made yesterday—that one of the difficulties in these situations which have arisen from time to time over recent years is the belief, held in so many
quarters, and supported by so many people, that Parliament can ensure settlements. The hon. Member asked what the attitude of the Government would be, supposing that the whole obstacle to a settlement lay in certain behaviour, or refusal, of the miners. I said yesterday, and, I think with the general assent of the House, that there was no coercion which Parliament could put on the miners. We could not coerce them to accept or even to consider the terms which I put forward in April and May, and we could not coerce them to-day in similar circumstances. I do not pay any attention to the quotations from one of the militant parties, because I always strictly refrain from making any quotations from militant parties on either side. I will only say that anything they reproduce from Sir Adam Nimmo, I could cap from Mr. Cook.
I want to make one or two preliminary observations on the earlier part of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Hartshorn). He spoke with a knowledge of figures almost peculiar to him in this House. Figures, of course, are difficult things to use in the House of Commons on these subjects of wages and profits, because they have not been studied as they have by him. But figures are always extraordinarily misleading things, and I do not wish to go into them in any detail, because I think I shall be able to show that they are beside the question. I would only observe this—and I lay no blame to the right hon. Gentleman for it—but the figures he took in 1925 were figures over a. term of six months. To correct the impression made, we must remember that at the beginning of that six months we still had in this country a certain inflation of prices resulting from the coal stoppage in the United States of America, and that prices fell rapidly all through the first six months of that year. If you take the last normal month—and we have been applying the term "normal" to the period before the granting of the subsidy—if you take that, you find that in Scotland, Northumberland, Durham, South Wales and Lancashire, if those prices existed now and any calculation was made on them, then even a 10 per cent. reduction would mean a substantial loss in every one of these
districts. I do not wish to make any point out of that. I only want to show, that even over six months, if you take the figures, whether by average or by certain months, they give results entirely contrary to each other.
There was a phrase which the right hon. Gentleman used, and which seems to be used naturally in this House, partly arising, I think, from the Government interference, which has for many years been the rule in this industry, and partly from the feeling that the Government have power to force settlements on parties who do not agree. The right hon. Gentleman said, referring to the proposals on which he discanted at some length, that the Government did not accept those proposals. It is not for the Government to accept or refuse any proposals. [HON. MEMBERS: "You accepted the eight-hour day."] What the Government said was that in their opinion the proposals did not form the basis of a settlement, because a settlement has to be made between two parties, and the reasons why the Government considered that they did not afford a basis for settlement were given yesterday both by myself and by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. We considered both from such arguments as we were able to use ourselves, and also after consultation with the coalowners. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Well, any proposals from the one side to a mediator must be brought before the other side. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about the eight hours?"] I explained yesterday the improbability of anybody opening the pits until he knew what would be the terms which would Obtain for some little time, so that he might he able to make his sales and his contracts. Another practical difficulty in the way of looking on these proposals as a basis of a settlement is that when my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Leader of the Labour party had those discussions which we all hoped would bear fruit—[Interruption.]

Mr. BECKETT: They would have done if you had stayed away.

HON. MEMBERS: Name.

Mr. BUCHANAN: Name some of the other side.

Mr. SPEAKER: Hon. Members particularly desired this last hour, in order that they might further explore possible avenues towards peace. These interjections are defeating the object for which they asked for this time.

The PRIME MINISTER: When the conversations were held between my right hon. Friend and the Leader of the Opposition, although I was not in the country at the time, I was led to understand—and I did not hear it contradicted yesterday—that they both understood that the miners were prepared to consider the questions both of wages and of hours. But in regard to the proposals that were put forward, and to which the two speakers have referred, we understand by the conversations we have had with the only parties who after all are, or up to now have been, able to speak with certainty—that is the representatives of the Miners' Federation themselves—that the question of hours will not be considered; and in our view at this time no settlement into which that consideration does not enter is a proposal which can possibly afford a basis of settlement. There was one other point—the latter part of the proposals, where a reference is made to arbitration on certain terms of the Samuel Report. It is quite clear from the wording that Acts of Parliament would be liable to come under review by the Arbitration Board. That, of course, is a position which no Parliament. whatever its complexion, can tolerate for a moment. But it is fair to say that in conversations, private conversations—and I am sure there is no harm in divulging this—with the miners' representatives, they told us that all that was in their mind was the relations between employer and employed, and that they did not contemplate the revision of any acts which the Government might have taken. But the wording does allow this to he considered.
After all, while it is perfectly right that we should once more examine these proposals, although they were examined yesterday, we must remember that the Government have made a definite offer, which we hope will be considered at the meeting that is to take place to-morrow. And may I remind the House once more why that offer was made. We failed, and the House knows why—because the reasons were explained at great length by the Chancellor of the Exchequer—to
bring about a tripartite conference about 10 days ago. Seeing that the prospect of any form of national agreement was impossible to get by agreement, the Government thought it only right that the safeguarding of what we believe the miners feel they have in a national agreement should be given to district agreements if come to by legislation. That was the reason, and the sole reason, why we proposed, in default of a national agreement, and until such time as a national agreement was arrived at, to set up and make function an appeal tribunal. It would operate where either party was dissatisfied with the wages at which work had been resumed. A resumption of work on agreements to be made must be, in our view, a precedent to legislation. Legislation is a serious step to take in matters of this kind. [HON. MEMBERS: "You took it for the owners!"] There is always a risk in legislation that something may be done which may make it impossible for either one side or the other to fulfil their function in industry. But we consider it only fair that in cases where longer hours were being worked, that that safeguard should be given, that it should be seen by the independent national tribunal that the wages for the longer hour are fair in consideration to the extra time given.
I would repeat once more what I have said often at this Box, and what, I think, is generally the view on this side of the House, and that is that, without flexibility in hours, it would be perfectly impossible in certain parts of the country to pay wages which men can accept. It is perfectly true that for a short time—no one knows how short—there probably will he higher prices. But let us remember that, owing to the ratio, those will be reflected in the wages, and let us be very careful that we do not repeat the mistake which, I think was made in 1924 by stabilising, in a moment of better trade, a wage which cannot be held in normal times, and which would have, in such a. settlement, the seeds of future trouble. The Government, of course, cannot tell what will be the ultimate reception of the offer which they made, and which, I believe, the miners still have before them. We said that that offer could only be held
a short time. [An HON. MEMBER: "Cut it off now!"] No, I have no desire to remove it until it has been weighed with a full sense of responsibility, but it is perfectly obvious that if that offer should not be accepted, or that nothing can be built on that offer which may lead to a settlement, that offer cannot be held over any longer.

Mr. MacDONALD: You said, Mr. Speaker, a minute ago that the Opposition was very anxious for an hour at the end of this sitting, which is the end of this part of the Session, to try to explore once again the possibilities of peace, and although the temptation which the Prime Minister has given us to examine the consistency of his position with reference to certain general principles that he laid down is very strong, I am not going to take it. He and I can argue across this table about legislation and so on, and I can ask him whether he forgot certain principles of his six weeks or two months ago. Well, Mr. Speaker, at the end of it all what has happened? Nothing! I am not going to do it, therefore, but I am going to ask the Government have they really made up their mind definitely and finally to stand by the position that has just been enunciated? We are told, for instance, that the Government cannot make themselves responsible for a proposal which will not be accepted. They have made themselves responsible for a proposal which cannot be accepted, and I will tell the Government why. The Government know quite well that this proposal, with its arbitration, with its tribunals, and all what not, is based upon the beginning of a district settlement. It is based, to start with, upon the abandonment of what the Miners' Federation has said from the beginning is really essential, namely, a national settlement. It is based upon a negation of a principle of negotiation, of an approach to a settlement, which the Government themselves, only a few days ago, said they believed to be sound.
What the Government are now asking the men to do is to surrender at the beginning. The question really is, are the Government going to stand by that decision? The Prime Minister said that in the proposal made by the men, which we are urging very earnestly for further con-
sideration by the Government, while they have said something about wages, they have said nothing about hours. Is there no reference in that proposal to the Report of the Royal Commission? The Report of the Royal Commission included the question of hours. I happen to know what I am arguing about. It is impossible to discuss the provisions of the Royal Commission Report without discussing the question of hours. Does the Secretary of State for War tell me that there is no reference to the Royal Commission's Report in that proposal which the miners made? What is the use of sneering about these things? The Prime Minister, the whole Government and everyone who has been engaged in these negotiations, know perfectly well that one of the great difficulties in the situation is the negotiation of hours. We told the Government so when they were passing their Bill into law. It is there. They know it. We know it. The Miners' Federation know it. It is one of the most difficult things to do to get any official representatives of the miners to discuss hours. There is no use playing round about the bush. There it is.
But when the Government, if they really mean to try and help a settlement, find a reference made to the Royal Commission's Report, and then they turn round and say there is no reference made to hours, they must know that the statement is an inaccurate and a most unfair one. But that is not all. What has been the Government's position in regard to hours? It has been this. That without certain elasticity in hours, certain wages cannot be paid. The miners have made an offer regarding wages in relation to hours, and if this wages proposal were accepted they argue—and it has never been controverted—that if the wages proposal be accepted as a temporary arrangement which they will work altogether, not piecemeal, immediately the work is resumed, arbitration machinery is set up, and before the period elapses when working on that wages rate ceases to be economical, the arbitration machinery has worked and has produced decisions, then the industry settles down to the conditions determined by arbitration. That is the scheme. There is something else wanted. Why is there no attempt being made to find it? If the Government stand by
their position, as enunciated a month ago by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, "We want a settlement which recognises and fits itself into the economic facts of the industry," there is a proposal that does so. If the Government want elasticity, there is a proposal that gives it; because the elastic part of the proposal is the proposal for arbitration.
Therefore I ask the Government—if it is any use at all to address further arguments to them—to give us a very clear statement regarding the wages proposal. Are the figures of my right hon. Friend correct? The Prime Minister says he does not think so. That is not good enough. My right hon. Friend is prepared to examine with any official of any Government Department, to examine with any responsible Cabinet Committee or Minister, his statement regarding the economic result of the offer the miners have made. If there is the good will that we have heard so much about, if there is a real desire for peace, why is not that done? The Government have now got a proposal which, says my right hon. Friend, who knows the figures and who is admittedly a great expert in the matter, means—on examination of the only official figures that are at our disposal, the figures published in the bulky index to the Royal Commission's Report—that on the offer made by the miners in relation to the present economic situation in the industry the industry can be carried on for an appreciable period as a paying concern. That position must be met. If the Government knock those figures into a cocked hat, undoubtedly my right hon. Friend's proposal falls to the ground. But there it is, and the point is, and I really press it, Are my right hon. Friend's calculations right or wrong? In any event, the Government have made themselves responsible for offering a certain proposal of their own to the owners and to the men. Will not the Government get the owners' representatives to meet, say, my right hon. Friend—I make this proposal absolutely off my own bat, on my own initiative—will they get representatives to meet and examine those figures, and if they find those figures are correct, why do they not press them as a scheme upon the owners? We are not asking them to do anything they have not done. It is a very simple, a
very plain, and, I think, a very practical proposal, and we are urging it again because we are profoundly dissatisfied with the statement which we got yesterday, and I am still more profoundly dissatisfied with the answer which has been given by the Prime Minister to the speech made by my right hon. Friend.
There is this other point, and it is one upon which I lay very great emphasis. In this offer of the miners you have got something which is very precious, something which I warn the Government very seriously against allowing to pass; you have got the beginnings of what, with careful handling, can be a system of arbitration, which may be required very much to carry this industry over a considerable period of peace. That alone is worth something, that alone is worth a great deal. There you have it. You have got a definite proposal upon wages, which ought to be examined, and you have got an agreement to discuss hours, contained in the reference to the Royal Commission's Report. You have got a proposal which is a definite offer to submit the whole economic questions concerned in the industry to a properly constituted board of arbitration, and I say that the Government is taking an exceedingly serious responsibility upon its shoulders if it turns down that offer upon the strength of the speeches that have hitherto been made in regard to it. If it is a bad proposal then all I can say is that that condition of the proposal has not been demonstrated from the benches opposite. I again urge the Government not to throw out an offer like this which means an essential surrender.
You may have an end of the dispute in a short time by breaks away. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not till Christmas!"] At any rate I will give them the benefit of the doubt. Supposing you do it to-morrow? Is that a satisfactory ending? If you have the dispute dragged out with 1,000 or 2,000 more returning to work each day by little spurts here and there. Is that a satisfactory ending? This House knows perfectly well it is nothing of the kind. I would strive might and main to prevent an ending like that, and to get a real agreement. I am convinced from what I know from conversations almost innumerable that the best thing to do is to get a temporary
arrangement backed up by the creation of machinery that will work out a permanent settlement between the men and the owners. I believe you have the nucleus of these ideas in the men's offer, and I hope it is not going to be rejected in the way which has apparently been the case up to now.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I rise to ask the Government two or three questions upon their own proposals. I expressed my opinion yesterday as to the unwisdom of rejecting the very favourable terms offered by the Miners' Federation. I am afraid the Government has made up its mind to stand by its own proposals, and it would only be a waste of time to argue the matter further. Men are not, as a rule, convinced by arguments, because the decisions they come to are generally influenced by motives outside the merits of the case. I propose, rather, to assume from the fact that after certain conversations have taken place, of which I know nothing, the Government have given their answer to-night, but I think it would be an advantage, from the point of view of the House and the country, if we were to be told one or two things more about the Government's proposal. I propose to put three questions to the Government. Yesterday the Chancellor of the Exchequer drew a distinction between the practice which has hitherto been observed in making arrangements between employers and employed in the mines concerning a national agreement and district agreements.
It is perfectly true that there are district variations and they are more or less determined by district considerations and consultations. But there are general principles, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer pointed out, which dominate, the whole of these agreements, which have been determined nationally before you approach a settlement of the details locally. The Chancellor indicated in the course of his speech that those principles might be embodied in the Government Bill. Do I understand from him that those national principles, which dominate the district settlements, would be a subject for negotiation and consultation between the Government and the miners' leaders before that Bill is brought in and submitted to Parliament? That is the
first question that I should like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer; I hope I have made the point clear.
The second is this: In the appeals from the district settlements to the national tribunal that is to be set up, will hours also be subject to revision by the tribunal? If there is a local agreement where the hours are extended, could an appeal upon that subject be made to the national tribunal? That is not clear in the terms. The third point that I should like to put is this: On the face of the terms, it rather looks as though only the parties to the local settlement would have a locus standi before the tribunal, which means that only the district representatives could appear before the national tribunal. Could the Miners' Federation, representing the whole of the miners of the kingdom, present the, case before the tribunal? I only want to have an answer to these three questions: First of all, will the principles which are embodied in the Bill—the principles that will determine the local settlements, the national principles—be a subject for negotiation with the Miners' Federation before the Bill is drafted? In the second place, would there be a possibility of revising hours before this tribunal, and, in the third place, would the Miners' Federation have a full locus standi before the tribunal, once it is set up? I only want to put these three questions to the Government.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Churchill): I am as anxious for an organised settlement of this protracted dispute as any Member of the House, but I must confess that it is with very great disappointment, and disappointment in the sense of the dispelling of expectations, that I have listened to the speeches which have been delivered from the, benches of the official Opposition. What do they amount to? They are simply a reiteration of the proposals which were made last week, after midnight, by the Miners' Federation to the Government, and which, at the very first glance, we stated afforded not the slightest prospect of a termination of the stoppage. We gave perfectly clear reasons for that. [Interruption.] This Debate was brought on at the desire of hon. Gentlemen opposite. We have listened to what they want to tell us, but if they do not want to listen to what we
have to say, we have no desire to force it upon them. It was, however, their wish, and we are endeavouring to address our minds to the questions which they have raised. At the very first moment when these proposals were raised, it was perfectly clear that they provided no means for an immediate cessation of the stoppage. The first of these four clauses dealt with proposals for a temporary return to work upon the basis of the 1921 minimum and a universal seven-hour day. If anyone imagines, at this stage in this business—and, surely, we ought to be looking at the verities of the case now—if anyone imagines at this stage that this business is going to be settled on that basis, they must be living in a world of the wildest absurdity.
There is not the slightest chance of an immediate resumption of work on a temporary basis of a universal seven-hour day. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about the eight hours?"] That is a matter which does not rest with the Government it is a matter of dispute between the miners and the owners. But what is asked of the Government? It is asked that the Government, in regard to these proposals which have come forward from the other side, should legislate, should use the power of Parliament, and should pass Acts of Parliament so that these proposals may be put into statutory form. That is a tremendous thing to ask. Those proposals can have no validity unless they are clothed in a Statute or agreed to by the owners. That is what you are asking us to do, to clothe those proposals with the form of law. [An HON. MEMBER: "You passed the Eight Hours Bill."] The hon. Gentleman cannot take credit for originality in making that observation. We are asked to legislate in a manner highly disputable and controversial in order to give those proposals the force of law. We have laid down—and we have a mind of our own in this matter—the fact that we will not, in any circumstances, legislate upon this subject in this dispute except in conjunction with the immediate termination of the dispute and the resumption of district settlements. That is our position. What is the use, at this stage in the discussion, of pressing us to depart from the position we have newly, definitely, and finally adopted. It is in this connection that I
address myself to the questions which were asked by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) in his brief speech.

Mr. DUNCAN GRAHAM: May I put a question to you?

Mr. CHURCHILL: I am answering others.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member cannot ask the right hon. Gentleman to answer a question at this time.

Mr. GRAHAM: The right hon. Gentleman has made a statement, and I want an answer to a question.

Mr. SPEAKER: The right hon. Gentleman is answering some questions already asked.

Mr. GRAHAM: On a point of Order. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]

Mr. SPEAKER: There cannot be a point of Order. The right hon. Gentleman does not give way.

Mr. CHURCHILL: I shall be quite ready to answer a question afterwards if it be put. [Interruption.] I really think that is rather an unreasonable request because the right hon. Gentleman has just delivered a speech. He was called upon by the Chair and he has exercised has ordinary Parliamentary right of putting questions to the Government, and the Government are discharging their duty in giving a reply. If that is an example of the peace intervention of the Parliamentary party all I can say is "Give me the miners' leaders."

Mr. GREENALL: I rise to a point of Order.

Mr. SPEAKER: The point of Order is disposed of.

Mr. GREENALL: I want to raise a point of Order.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is only preventing the right hon. Gentleman from speaking.

Mr. CHURCHILL: The right hon. Gentleman dealt not with our own rejecting the proposals which have been put forward by the miners, proposals on which we are not prepared to invite Parliament to pass a Bill, but with the proposals which the Government have
put forward and which, as the Prime Minister has said, only remain for a few more days operative. The right hon. Gentleman has asked me three separate questions, and I really do not feel, although he has a perfect right to ask them, in view of the attitude adopted by the leader of the Labour party and by the two speakers who have spoken officially or semi-officially from those benches, that there is any ground whatever for the Government embarking on a committee like discussion of their proposals. The primary, indispensable condition, without which we will not move one inch before we can legislate, is that there must be an order given by the Miners' Federation to their representatives to begin immediate district negotiations. I hope we are not to take the violent and obdurate answer we have received to-night as representing the true opinions of Mr. Cook and Mr. Smith. As long as we are confronted, not with that any attempt to promote a settle-
ment of these difficulties but merely with attempts to create a Parliamentary situation across the Floor of the House, I, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, decline to enter into a detailed discussion.

It being Eleven of the Clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

The remaining Orders were read and postponed.

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 27th September, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

Adjourned, accordingly, at One Minute after Eleven o'Clock until Tuesday, 9th November, pursuant to the Resolution of the House of this day.